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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » General

Subject: Rancher, hunting rifle vs double barrel shotgun rss

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Eric Harman
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These two weapons seem evenly matched. The rifle has longer range, and +2 damage, and 3 upgrade slots. The shotty has one more shot and uses d8s.

What do y'all think?
 
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J M
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I actually did crunch these numbers plugging in various enemy defence values, and accounting for Tough ability, and generally speaking, so long as range is not a factor the double wins out massively.

Those numbers were only accounted per hit, and the double barrel gets one more than the rifle in every comparable situation.

Of course, range can be a factor and our group's rancher has dropped many monsters from distance.
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Neil Edmonds
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The rancher in my group decided to keep the starting rifle and uses the Void Assembly mod (peril die once per fight), under the theory that dropping one character for the extra damage is useful.

The Rancher was recently modified to allow only a maximum of 3 extra shots when killing enemies in a fight round.
 
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Philip Jelley
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Why not use a Repeating Rifle? 2 shots and +1 damage.
 
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Jee Fu
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Stormknight and I had this conversation about a year ago (?) and it went on for ... many pages. He favors the Double Barrel heavily and I believe them to be roughly equal - for Ranchers - in terms of abstracted usefulness. There are many maths involved in our arguments. You can look up the thread if you like; it gets pretty gritty on the calculation side.

The gist of my argument is that the punch-damage, the extra socket, and the range all combo well enough to make up for the Shotgun's crit-range and extra Shot.

The Hunting Rifle actually rolls more damage on average per Hit than the Shotgun (5.5 vs 4.5), so it can guarantee "kill-per-Hit"s more often thus activating Rapid Fire more dependably (note, this is different from "more often"). It may activate with the Double Barreled Shotgun with as much (or more) frequency, but it will happen more randomly. In other words, once all your Hits are rolled, you don't have to gamble as much during Hit Assignment on getting your ability to chain while using the Rifle. That allows you min-max your kills and damage, leaving less of it wasted.

That being said, the Shotgun has more than x2 the Crit range and +1 Shot. These are not small things; most Enemies aren't immune to Crits (and if they are, you can be nearly certain that the Rifle is better over all). To balance that, the Rifle has 2 more sockets than the Shotgun. You can gain an extra re-roll (which is almost equivalent to an extra Shot once you have 3+ Shots) OR you can get another +1 damage if you find a Smithing Rancher (or you are one). The Hunting Rifle is also cheaper (free if you're a Rancher).

Obviously these numbers change with the situation. The lower your Ranged To-Hit value, the better the Rifle gets. The higher, the better the Shotgun gets (don't use a Rifle as a Redemption Preacher - stick with the Shotgun). As the Defense of an Enemy goes up, the Shotgun's damage drops way off on non-crits (cause many of the results of a D8 will be 0 against a High Def Target; the Rifle is still doing at least 1 damage to Defense 2 Enemies on non-crits no matter what), but goes way up on Crits (relative to the Rifle).

All-in-all, against a non-crit-immune 2 Defense Enemy (which I think is pretty average) I think the Shotgun does something like 0.26 more damage more per Shot if don't have the Dark Stone Refinement Upgrade on the Rifle. If you do, the Rifle does 0.90 damage more per Shot than the Shotgun. In the latter case you don't have the re-roll (cause that costs 2 slots and you've used 1 of them for the Refinement), so the Shotgun is going to pull ahead in Total Damage Per Attack by +1.5 or so. This can mitigated with the Rifle's other socket (maybe), or by skilled Hit assignment to take advantage of a more predictable Rapid Fire (which is also easier to max out with Range 12 than with Range 4).

Like I said, complicated. I believe them to be roughly equivalent in terms of Fight effectiveness. The Shotgun has more raw damage; the Rifle has more dependability.

- Jee
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Eric Harman
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Interesting. Do you have a link to the discussion? I'd like to read it.
 
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Brian M
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Quote:
Stormknight and I had this conversation about a year ago (?) and it went on for ... many pages.

Ha ha ha! Yeah, I saw this thread and immediately thought of that conversation.

I favored the shotgun, with the improved hit and critical value being a big edge. I never considered the range all that valuable; we rarely saw monsters being out of range for the shotgun. Our rancher would tend to run into a new room and just "death blossom", taking out all the monsters (before the +3 shot limit though).

Oddly, we disagreed on which one was more reliable; I found the D8 to hit to be a huge reliability factor, getting hits a lot more consistently.

If you are planning on getting the rancher skills that give bonuses on a crit, a shotgun will be even more valuable.

I think overall you will do well with either - just pick whichever gun you think is cooler!
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Joe Price
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There are multiple threads - no single one to link.

EDIT: Bah, BGG and it's dislike of certain URL markers. So, no search links for you. Just hit Google and use site:boardgamegeek.com with the appropriate terms.
 
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Brian M
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It was this one:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1373517/strangeness-xp-...

The discussion about rifle vs. shotgun starts toward the bottom of page 1.
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Jee Fu
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StormKnight wrote:
Ha ha ha! Yeah, I saw this thread and immediately thought of that conversation.

I favored the shotgun,

See - what'd I tell ya? cool

StormKnight wrote:
Oddly, we disagreed on which one was more reliable; I found the D8 to hit to be a huge reliability factor, getting hits a lot more consistently.

Yah, we disagreed on what reliability meant. It's true, you will "connect" more often with the Shotgun. In that sense, it's more reliable. But your damage will be less predictable and more "streaky", enough that you won't be able to strategize around it as well, which will make you miss some value from Rapid Fire and lead situations you cannot reliably predict. In other words, the Damage per Hit on the Rifle is more reliable.

This is less important in the Core Sets, where everything is melee, squishy, and easy. Once you start adding in expos you get high Defense, crit-resistance, and ranged-attacks on a lot of the foes. If you're not planning 2 turns ahead in Trederra you will pay for it.

StormKnight wrote:
I think overall you will do well with either - just pick whichever gun you think is cooler!

This I pretty much agree with.

- Jee
 
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Joe Price
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To add one new piece for y'all to have more discussion on: the impact of Endurance. That would seem to favor the shotgun because the rifle always seem to peg its damage on those critters. Though on the Cinder ghosts, the extra damage was nice to actually punch through their high defense even if you could only do 1 point.
 
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Jee Fu
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Endurance favors "moar shots!" over pretty much everything else so neither gun is really that great against it. The Shotgun has a max shots edge (although its much more expensive to hit the cap) so, yep. I would technically give Endurance to the Shotgun for effectiveness-against.

But what you really want is an Outlaw with 10 Shots total and uncapped re-rolls.

- Jee
 
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Eric Harman
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StormKnight wrote:


If you are planning on getting the rancher skills that give bonuses on a crit, a shotgun will be even more valuable.

I think overall you will do well with either - just pick whichever gun you think is cooler!


I am planning on taking the marksman tree, and dressed for adventure. So I will get the bonus crit damage.
If I manage to get the "law" keyword, it'll probably be a moot point, because the punisher is so good.
 
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Eric Harman
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StormKnight wrote:
It was this one:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1373517/strangeness-xp-...

The discussion about rifle vs. shotgun starts toward the bottom of page 1.


Thanks!
 
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Jee Fu
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Cooperton wrote:
StormKnight wrote:


If you are planning on getting the rancher skills that give bonuses on a crit, a shotgun will be even more valuable.

I think overall you will do well with either - just pick whichever gun you think is cooler!


I am planning on taking the marksman tree, and dressed for adventure. So I will get the bonus crit damage.
If I manage to get the "law" keyword, it'll probably be a moot point, because the punisher is so good.

Yeah, if you're going +crit damage and the Keyword Law (dependably) then the Punisher is a no-brainer. I would still keep your Rifle tho. Town Missions favor long range, plus you can switch to it when a Tough Enemy appears. You'll have plenty of carrying space if you're Dressing For Adventure.

- Jee
 
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Brian M
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Quote:
But your damage will be less predictable and more "streaky", enough that you won't be able to strategize around it as well...

Our double-barrelled shotgun rancher was not the least bit "streaky" - she killed everything left on the board when her turn came up, no matter how much stuff that was.
 
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Jee Fu
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
But your damage will be less predictable and more "streaky", enough that you won't be able to strategize around it as well...

Our double-barrelled shotgun rancher was not the least bit "streaky" - she killed everything left on the board when her turn came up, no matter how much stuff that was.

I'm speaking in statistical hypotheticals. If your min-damage per Hit is 4 and your grit generation is functionally-endless, and all you have are Core Sets, then you're going to obliterate the board no matter what you're using.

- Jee
 
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John
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I think the hunting rifle is the best gun in the game for the rancher. I do not think there is another gun that can be upgrade to compete with the +2 damage, a dark stone grip, a void assembly, and the rancher upgrade that gives +1 shot.

Edit: to be clear that gives you 3 shots, +2 damage, and the ability to reroll one missed shot.

Depending on your build you could also reroll an additional missed shot if your aren't adjacent and a to damage roll.

Put those with the +3 shots you could mow down all enemies on the board
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Nick Hughes
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Does the range become more of a factor with the inclusion of enemies that maintain their distance to utilise ranged combat/spells? Or do the majority of mine/OW tiles not have more than X number of squares before the rear of the tile and the entry point.
 
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Jee Fu
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jokeroz wrote:
Does the range become more of a factor with the inclusion of enemies that maintain their distance to utilise ranged combat/spells? Or do the majority of mine/OW tiles not have more than X number of squares before the rear of the tile and the entry point.

Range is a noticeable factor in the following cases (in my experience):

- you have less than 6 Range
- you're on a pre-constructed board
- you're on a mission that takes place in Town; this technically falls into the above category but its worth mentioning because the Enemies can appear in all kinds of places, and a 12-range isn't anywhere near close enough to hit one end of the board from the other (getting up on the roof helps with this, and is just awesome).
- your +move relative to the posse average is lacking
- you're fighting spell casters or artillery (Void Sorcs have a 12(?) Range and are perfectly happy sitting in the very back and pummeling you with undefendable Void Bolts or disintegrating the items you're carrying)
- the tiles you're fighting on are very large (there are ... probably 7-8 of these I would place firmly into this category)

So, yeah often enough for sure. The Punisher Shotgun has a 6 Range (vs the DB's 4) so Law Heroes can mitigate some of this. I know a guy who put a DS Barrel on his DB-Shotgun cause he has -2 Move due to Rock Skin. He said he's never going to switch it out for a Grip - he's rather have free Armor 4+ and just keep using the range-modded shotty.

- Jee
 
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Eric Harman
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Even though I *mostly* agree that the range isnt *much* of an issue. It did come up last night. The Law Woman and Saloon Girl were holding off a horde of hungry dead, with me picking them off from behind, that's when the hellbats ambushed. We were struggling, so I broke away from the bats attacking me and finished off the corpse pile from like 10 spaces away.

I couldn't have done that, even with a punisher.

Oh and Jee, it had occured to me that it might be worth my trouble to carry both. Since dressed for adventure essentially gives me a strength of like 13 for carry weight.

As far as town missions go.. well they aren't that difficult, and thus aren't a big deciding factor. But the idea of posting up on a building and sniping enemies does sound fun, not to mention the cover saves it grants.
I may very well hold on to the rifle for now, and maybe buy a shotty for backup later on.

But, by all means, continue the discussion. I'm very interested in the comparisons. I found the math in the other thread very informative. :-)
 
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Andreas Lieberoth Wadum
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My rancher carries both her hunting rifle (with a dark stone grip etc.) and the triple-barrel shotgun (whatsitsname?) from the Sheriff's Office. I alternate depending on range. Works pretty well.
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Michael NA
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could someone give me a picture or at least the stats of the new shotgun you are talking about?
Since we don't have 1.5 I assume we'll get it once 2.0 is out, but I'd still like to know what it can do since it sounds awesome as hell...
 
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Eric Harman
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nmnighteyes wrote:
could someone give me a picture or at least the stats of the new shotgun you are talking about?
Since we don't have 1.5 I assume we'll get it once 2.0 is out, but I'd still like to know what it can do since it sounds awesome as hell...


Range 6, 2 shots. Reroll one damage roll per turn. Purchased from the sheriff's office in frontier town for a little more than a double barrel. I think it has one upgrade slot. D8s like all shottys
 
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Joe Price
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Cooperton wrote:
D8s like all shottys


Well, most anyway.
 
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