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Mythic Battles: Pantheon» Forums » General

Subject: Overly elaborate and confusing Combat System? rss

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Elias Charalambides
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Am I the only person that finds the combat system unnecessarily confusing?

Roll dice.
Throw dice away to add numbers to other dice.
Reroll 5s to then add more.
You can then add more to the final results even after rerolling with dice you didn't throw away?

So many steps to just chuck a bunch of dice and see what happens. I'm not really seeing the "strategy" in all this math. Yes, I know it's just addition but after doing it a few times I guarantee it's going to become tiresome.

Where's the interesting choices in just doing this simple die rolling math over and over again? I feel like a player is going to spend more time figuring out their rolls than actually deciding what to do with their forces and it's going to feel like "work". Like the game mechanics should be clean enough to just do it for you, instead of asking you to do it with each die roll. Thus clearing up the experience for players to actually make hard choices.

Maybe I'm missing something.
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It's both a way to mitigate luck and give you some control over dice rolls:
Will i reroll as many dice as i can, or take a safer path but secure (potententially) less hits?

The mechanism is pretty intuitive and in fact really interesting. Different players have different views, thus you might snark at your opponent's decision only to be proven right (or get destroyed ^^)

The idea is NOT to be destroyed by ill luck - though you might be destroyed by opponent's lucky roll - and actually take meaningful decisions rather than just bear with your dice roll & luck
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Christian Kløve
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Actually the dice mechanism is one of the things, which is making me consider backing the campaign.

If you for example roll 4,4,3,3,3,2,1 needing 7s - do you turn only your 4s into 5s, which would give you an automatic success with a 5/6 chance of a second success - or do you turn 3 dice into 5s, needing 2s on the reroll to hit, but giving the chance of 3 hits?

That seems like an interesting decision to me.
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Ben Clapperton
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Couldn't disagree more. I've played four games so have done the dice rolling more than a few times, and never found it tedious. It's all about balancing risk with reward. Do I want the one guaranteed point of damage on my opponent's god, or do I want to take my chances with re-rolling three 5s? What is the best given use of those results on that dice roll at any given time is the essence of it, and it adds an additional layer of player choice.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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I don't think it's that difficult.

It adds a tactical layer and you can actually profit from the flexibility. If you only have to do 1 or 2 damage it may be a guaranteed kill if you just add up the dice. You can take more risk, too and risk losing a few 5s. Yes it takes some getting used to but I think it's thought out pretty well.
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The Rake
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I kind of see both sides to this. I think it's an ingenious way of having to reach numbers that are higher than the dice can actually roll and sort of makes it a game in and of itself. It's also nice to have a different system that's unique and not just chucking dice and see what happens like a lot of other games already do.

However, I also see your argument that it does kind of take away from or slow down the strategy of troop movements and comes across as a little bit fiddly.

I guess I will not know until I play it, which one I think it will be. A fun little game by itself or a fiddly mechanic that slows the game down. I've just got to decide if all of the exclusives have driven me away or not.
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Elias Charalambides
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Kløve wrote:


If you for example roll 4,4,3,3,3,2,1 needing 7s - do you turn only your 4s into 5s, which would give you an automatic success with a 5/6 chance of a second success - or do you turn 3 dice into 5s, needing 2s on the reroll to hit, but giving the chance of 3 hits?


So I watched the video where he breaks down the combat system and this isn't what I gathered at all.

With your example to turn your 4s into 5s you'd have to discard two other numbers correct?

And it seems like you get to freely reroll the fives and just add whatever you roll to the previous 5. So why wouldn't you re-roll them?

I just don't get it.

Also with your example (again if I am understanding the mechanic correctly) you can't make your 3s into 5s. You'd need to discard the 4,4,2,and 1 and still need to discard two more dice to up each three to a 5. Right?

Maybe its the way the video explains it but it basically feels like a no brainer. Why wouldn't you up all the dice you can to 5 and then freely reroll them and add that value to a 5? Where's the tactics?
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Elias Charalambides
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redben wrote:
Do I want the one guaranteed point of damage on my opponent's god, or do I want to take my chances with re-rolling three 5s?


I don't see this in the video.

He clearly just rerolls the fives and adds the new value to the previous 5.


he's not losing anything in the reroll. He is ONLY gaining value. So why would you not do it?
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YC Lai
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Kyklos wrote:
redben wrote:
Do I want the one guaranteed point of damage on my opponent's god, or do I want to take my chances with re-rolling three 5s?


I don't see this in the video.

He clearly just rerolls the fives and adds the new value to the previous 5.


he's not losing anything in the reroll. He is ONLY gaining value. So why would you not do it?


Yes I don't get this part too, if you can save the 5 value when re-rolling, why would you not re-roll all 5 dice values? Worse case is you get a blank, but you'd have lost nothing.
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Elias Charalambides
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3SLagHrxIQ

In this video he literally says "any die that is a 5 is rerolled ... they are added to the previous result" .
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Trent Y.
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Kyklos wrote:
redben wrote:
Do I want the one guaranteed point of damage on my opponent's god, or do I want to take my chances with re-rolling three 5s?


I don't see this in the video.

He clearly just rerolls the fives and adds the new value to the previous 5.


he's not losing anything in the reroll. He is ONLY gaining value. So why would you not do it?


Blanks are lost. So if you roll/convert into a 5, and then choose to explode it, on a blank the entire 'die' is lost. That includes the original 5.

Thus if you need a 7 and roll a 5, 5, 4 and 2, you could
A) play it very safe and discard the 4 and 2 to upgrade a 5 to a 7 and then explode the other 5 in hopes that it will get a 2+
B) sacrifice the 2 to upgrade the 4 to a 5 and then explode your three 5s hoping for all three to come up higher than 2+.
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vagelis
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one of the best thinks in this game is the battle system with dice!!!!!!
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Ben Clapperton
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There's two reasons, and one, as mentioned, is you lose the die if the re-roll is a blank. This is different to rolling a 1 to add to the 5 when the Def is higher than 6, as this die can still be spent to gain +1. A blank cannot.

The other reason is this. I am hitting a Def 9 unit, I roll 3,3,4,4,5. I can spend the first four to get a guaranteed wound on the unit as spending four dice gives me +4, and added to the 5 that makes 9. Or, I can spend the two 3s to make the two 4s into 5s. That gives me three 5s. So I have the choice, one guranteed wound, or three rolls which wound on a 4+ (which in MB is the same odds as a 5+ on a normal D6). Do I play it safe and take the guaranteed wound, or do I risk it with the three re-rolls?
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Trent Y.
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Overall, the system is a little more complex than others. It is not really meant to have much strategy but there will be the odd time when you need to hit 6-7s.

The system is not meant to be strategic but it's meant to mitigate luck (as has already been stated). In this system, even Batman can make Superman bleed. Every attack, whether 3 dice or 7 dice can produce results. It has less 'whiffing' than any other system and that's a good thing.

Overall it would be my favourite dice mechanic in a boardgames and/or minis game.
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Ben Clapperton
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Regardless of the original intent, I frequently found myself weighing up the best use of the dice. Unless I was hitting low Def units it was rarely the case that there was only use of the dice, and there was a risk/reward in how they were used. That is a decision making mechanic, not just a luck mitigation mechanic.
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Freelance Police
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Kyklos wrote:
Am I the only person that finds the combat system unnecessarily confusing?


After Arkham Horror and Eldritch Horror, NO dice combat system is unnecessarily confusing! goo

But, yeah, I'm buying the game for the Activation Cards, not the dice. You can certainly have engaging and tense combat without dice. Magic the Gathering has been doing this for over thirty years, and I'm fiddling with a western gunfight game that plays fast without dice.
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Sammy
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As someone new to gaming, I had some difficulty understanding the combat dice at first....but now that I get it, it seems like a great idea!
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TechRaptor Travis
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I have first hand experience (the dev sent me a preview copy: https://techraptor.net/content/crowdfunding-spotlight-mythic...) and I can say that this is the best dice mechanic for this type of game that I have ever played.

It's so much fun, and it feels like you have some control over the roll of the dice, and it makes the dice roll feel so much more involved than a simple roll-for-result style system.

The choices of which dice to change are obvious, but it FEELS good, and that feeling makes it more involved and more fun.
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Elias Charalambides
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Sarimrune wrote:


Blanks are lost.




AHHHH!! Ok now I see it. So even for re-rolls they are lost.

That wasn't mentioned in the video. It would have been nice to say that. I scrubbed through the Beasts of war video to see them mention it.

That definitely adds that nice push your luck strategy. Ok, yeah that is pretty interesting.
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Trent Y.
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As a point of interest, in the original game if you rolled a blank after a 5, you kept the orignal 5. So this is a fairly important change between the old and the new
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Sam Wineinger
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I love the dice system they're using. I agree it can be confusing if you just watch someone do it, without an explanation, but once you know how it works, it really does lead to some interesting decisions. It also mitigates terrible rolling, to some degree. I think it's terrific.
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