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Subject: Are my Descent habits killing me? rss

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Jason Beighel
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I picked up Myth to replace Descent and I'm having a hard time with the game. I love the gameplay, every turn has a lot of things that need to be balanced. The way all the different systems bounce off each other is wonderful; balancing killing monsters with threat and triggering the darkness, how movement limits your attacks and positioning really effects how the monsters behave. Its all incredibly engaging.

My problem is that I can never clear a tile. I've been starting with 1 crawler lair with 7 minions. I had initially added a grubber hunting pack with 3 minions in it, but I stopped as that only made my defeats faster.

I suspect that my tactics are wrong for Myth. In Descent if you aren't moving, you're losing. Overlord cards and Peril effects will eventually bury you if you don't complete the encounter quickly. I kill off monsters as soon as they are in range since everything on the board will attack every turn, so less monsters means less damage.

Myth seems to want you to take a more cautious methodical approach. Playing aggressively seems to get you killed fast since you'll activate the Darkness quicker and get swarmed and buried quickly. I'm guessing that I need to hit the biggest threats hard and fast, and ignore the minions until the end.

I like the mechanic where the enemies don't attack every turn, it really adds an interesting wrinkle to strategy. I just have no idea how to deal with it.
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zee ogre
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"most efficient" vs "best" isn't always the same thing; you also want to take into account maximizing treasure and avoiding loitering.

Learning to balance the cards in your hand versus what's on the board, when it's best to leave action slots empty to lower threat and when you need to keep your threat up and how to position yourself to draw enemies but still avoid unnecessary attacks, these are all things you pick up with time. Myth is a game that is meant to be replayed many, many times.

You're right that clearing order is important. My personal priority is lairs first, then try to pick off the weakest remaining monster types to minimize the AP cost of the refresh phase. It's really just a rule of thumb, though; each set of hands on a tile is a unique puzzle to solve.

I think the closest thing to the peril effects in descent are the Threat penalties, and you avoid Threat penalties by playing methodically; but that's not always the most fun. My group gets quite a lot of enjoyment of going right up to the edge (one might even say riding the edge) of the Threat Penalty to get the tile clear in as few Hero Cycles as possible. The difficulty spike when someone is careless and eats a Threat Penalty really adds to the spice.
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Dan Renwick
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It'll probably take a few games to get the hang of it. Try to get bang for your buck out of your Action Points. They're like a limited resource that you have to spend wisely.

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Thorsten Schröder
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zogre wrote:
My personal priority is lairs first, then try to pick off the weakest remaining monster types to minimize the AP cost of the refresh phase.


It's kinda the way I play. But it's gotten to the point where lairs go down so quickly that I rarly have to deal with any spawn.
That can get kinda boring so I have to add more lairs...

BTW: what combination of heroes are you playing?
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Kevin Erskine
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Others have said it, but lairs have to go down first. Also, remember say you're playing with the Acolyte and you can increase the enemy's hit number (TN) to say 9 or 10, then don't worry about taking wounds, just let them swarm you, most will miss.

It also really makes a big difference who you have with you. If you can't get to the lair easily and don't have an archer, then you're going to take some damage before you can get to it. No way around it. Well there is if you have the Trickster and his spring trap. Love that guy

Also, it's okay to do nothing but a move on your turn to get the cards you need. Yeah, it costs you one darkness AP, but if that's the difference in killing the lair before it activates it's worth it.

Also, if you get someone next to the lair, it's okay for them to take the only action for two consecutive turns to finish it off before the darkness comes. Think of it thematically. One person is going to sneak up and block the lair entrance, but you don't want the others being seen or everything inside will know your there.

This is absolutely not a "Everyone takes a turn" game.
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Endevor Rovedne
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gulpWith how many Heroes do you play?
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Thorsten Schröder
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kerskine wrote:
Others have said it, but lairs have to go down first. Also, remember say you're playing with the Acolyte and you can increase the enemy's hit number (TN) to say 9 or 10, then don't worry about taking wounds, just let them swarm you, most will miss.

It also really makes a big difference who you have with you. If you can't get to the lair easily and don't have an archer, then you're going to take some damage before you can get to it. No way around it. Well there is if you have the Trickster and his spring trap. Love that guy

Also, it's okay to do nothing but a move on your turn to get the cards you need. Yeah, it costs you one darkness AP, but if that's the difference in killing the lair before it activates it's worth it.

Also, if you get someone next to the lair, it's okay for them to take the only action for two consecutive turns to finish it off before the darkness comes. Think of it thematically. One person is going to sneak up and block the lair entrance, but you don't want the others being seen or everything inside will know your there.

This is absolutely not a "Everyone takes a turn" game.



That's true.
Let's say you have the soldier. His 'riding the edge' card can often bring you right next to the lair and kill some minions in a way that other chars get a LoS on it. Since it costs 2 AP just let the other heroes do nothing that turn (except when they can get 2 or maybe 3 dmg-attacks on the lair). Just move them to a spot where they can see the lair. The Acolyte has cards for damage boost or AP-reduction. Some cards do more damage if you haven't moved (or when you have). Keep looking for those.
You have to get the feel for the AP-costs of a card. I seldom bother with cards that do one damage on one target but cost 1 AP (I'm looking at you 'Attack'-Card). The Circumstance where I pay 2 AP to kill one minion are almost non existent.
 
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Jason Beighel
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Glad to hear I'm not wrong in blaming my tactics for failures, and even better to hear I was at least looking at the right path to victory. Now I just need to get that all working at my game table...

Due to the size of my gaming table I've only played with two heroes. It's not a great table, but its out of the way so the game can be left setup for days at a time. I tend to randomly pick the heroes to use each session, partly just to try them out and partly to learn how their abilities mix and match.


It sounds like I need to be more stingy with the Darkness AP than I have been. If I have an attack card I always try and use it, which ends up in me getting buried in swarms of spawns. Incidentally is there any rules regarding running out of minis? I've had a few situations where I was supposed to spawn more and my supply of crawlers had run out. I had assumed that at this point I've lost that tile so it doesn't matter what I do.


Last night I learned that threat is a thing to be feared greatly as well. I was having a good ole time with the acolyte, a few continuous powers and a couple turns in a row where I roasted 4 minions at a time had me feeling really good. Till the Darkness came, dropped Yardu on and and put me back in my place.
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Thorsten Schröder
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JBeighel wrote:
Till the Darkness came, dropped Yardu on and and put me back in my place.


Yeah... that's always fun *g*

Somewhere in the rulebook is a paragraph about runing out of minis. I think for every 3 minions (rounded up) and every captain missing you ad +1 AP to the darkness.
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Kathrin
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It's on p. 18:

Quote:
If players ever need to spawn enemies and do not have enough miniatures to spawn those enemies, the darkness meter is increased depending on the number and rank of missing enemies. For every three minion miniatures missing (rounded up), increase the darkness AP by 1. For each other rank of miniatures missing, increase the darkness AP by 1.
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Paul Aceto
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One more thought - this is a game where knowing and manipulating your deck is very important. E.g., some cards are especially useful for killing lairs, so cycling hands for a phase or two can be worth it to try to get them. Also, deciding which card to keep each turn can be important.

I have found the soldier/acolyte duo is very good for learning how to play. Both have good AoE attacks (Harvest of Bones, Last Rites), and the acolyte can not only heal but also do things such as reduce darkness costs and add damage.

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David Griffin
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Well it's more puzzle than video game. Every time you set up the tile, rather than run at the monsters you have to sit back and come up with a plan for how you're going to clear the tile. As others have said, get the lair first, or if there is a trap, you may have to get the trap first or sometimes a combination of the two. And when there is a boss, then to some extent the rules go out the window.

And you have to manage your threat level. If you take one hero and kill as many enemies as you can (this is especially true for a soldier) then you're going to create a threat level so high that when you do get a darkness cycle, you'll up with way too much opposition to deal with. You can actually kill your entire party merely by getting your threat level too high. For me too high is 8.

If you want a Myth game more like a video game, or possibly Descent, you might try a Slaughterfest tile. There are no traps or lairs, and the monsters have to be killed quickly. You might try that. I'm not a big fan of Slaughterfest but you might be. Good luck.
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zee ogre
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Cuthailion wrote:
zogre wrote:
My personal priority is lairs first, then try to pick off the weakest remaining monster types to minimize the AP cost of the refresh phase.


It's kinda the way I play. But it's gotten to the point where lairs go down so quickly that I rarly have to deal with any spawn.
That can get kinda boring so I have to add more lairs...

BTW: what combination of heroes are you playing?


My group started with acolyte/apprentice/archer/soldier, since then we've played all of them at various times. I've run every hero enough (except Hunter or the new JM heroes) to get a feeling for how each deck plays since I'm generally in the teaching role when I take the game to the FLGS or a convention.

Given my choice, I prefer the Soldier but also enjoy Acolyte and Spriggan. Our Acolyte player almost never wants to do anything else, but she will run the Skald. The Apprentice player alts the Brigand and Trickster. The Archer player also alts the Trickster, the Acolyte, and the Soldier; he's tried the Hunter as well but wasn't satisfied with it.

We'll probably go back to our core 4 to explore the Journeyman content once the stretch goals arrive with wave 3 or 4. We're pretty deep in my 1.3 homebrewed campaign mode, other than checking for damage I haven't even unboxed 2.0/Journeyman yet.
 
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David Griffin
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The Hunter seems to be an afterthought-- an exploration on dual wielding without the necessary spadework having been done. There are not even initial gear for him or her.
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Judy Krauss
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Zouave wrote:
One more thought - this is a game where knowing and manipulating your deck is very important. E.g., some cards are especially useful for killing lairs, so cycling hands for a phase or two can be worth it to try to get them. Also, deciding which card to keep each turn can be important.

I have found the soldier/acolyte duo is very good for learning how to play. Both have good AoE attacks (Harvest of Bones, Last Rites), and the acolyte can not only heal but also do things such as reduce darkness costs and add damage.



I agree about the Soldier and Acolyte being a good 2 character party, and that learning how each card can be used most effectively in certain situations is important.

But you can't just have the party "recycle" their hands until they get good cards without incurring the AP during the Refresh Phase (plus any Status Effects), and likely, unless they can spend at least 1 AP each Hero Cycle (from playing cards) they will get Loitering penalties with remain throughout the act or adventure.
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carbon_dragon wrote:
The Hunter seems to be an afterthought-- an exploration on dual wielding without the necessary spadework having been done. There are not even initial gear for him or her.


agree. I gave up on the Hunter pretty quickly and have not gotten back to trying him out.
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Judy Krauss
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jetewabbie wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
The Hunter seems to be an afterthought-- an exploration on dual wielding without the necessary spadework having been done. There are not even initial gear for him or her.


agree. I gave up on the Hunter pretty quickly and have not gotten back to trying him out.


I like the Hunter. She is in my party in an adventure I am playing now.



and I have also played with her and the Acolyte in the past:




Here's a short report of some gameplay with the Hunter, and the first post (and other posts) in the thread, also deal with starting items:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/22935509#22935509

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David Griffin
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I tried those starting items, and I even made my own starting items. I also printed the community equipment pack which has a number of dual wield weapons. I also downloaded the dual wield rules from Megacon games in that blog that they did describing what they're planning on doing for journeymen.

And yet the hunter still doesn't pull his weight in the party from my viewpoint. He's not terrible -- you can make him work in the party, but his abilities still don't impress. I think the main problem is that they made him half a melee hero, and half a range hero. As a result, he really doesn't have enough cards in his action deck for either of the two. He's playable, he's just not great. I think they would've been better off having him dual wield melee weapons and leave the bows to the archer.
 
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