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Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Shadows of the Past» Forums » Rules

Subject: Elevation and line of sight rss

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Joris
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Haarlem
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Does elevated terrain affect LOS? I could not find anything in the rules and terrain cards about this. (The PNP rules, I don't have the game yet)
Can you just see through buildings? Can two figures around the corner of a building see each other? Can a figure in the middle on a roof see figures standing next to the building?
 
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Scott Miller
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Elevated terrain does not affect LoS, as per Kevin Wilson. I don't know if that may change.
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Rob Hendon

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Look at elevated terrain this way though. You can make a ranged attack against an enemyou on a rooftop or even on the other side of the building, but hitting is unlikely. It is already considered two spaces just to fire up, then you are adding however many extra spaces, making the attack less effecting. You can hit a dude on the edge of a rooftop pretty easily, but hitting someone on the other side, even in the middle of the roof, would be a feat.
 
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Scott Miller
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magusx12 wrote:
Look at elevated terrain this way though. You can make a ranged attack against an enemyou on a rooftop or even on the other side of the building, but hitting is unlikely. It is already considered two spaces just to fire up, then you are adding however many extra spaces, making the attack less effecting. You can hit a dude on the edge of a rooftop pretty easily, but hitting someone on the other side, even in the middle of the roof, would be a feat.

I'm just house-ruling that elevated terrain blocks LoS. Kevin wanted to keep things uncomplicated, but I expect that will become a popular house rule among the community.
 
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Joris
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Shooting down or on the same level you don't get this penalty. When 2 figures are just around a corner of a building they are only two spaces apart. Then there are special moves like "Hurl sai" that make long range attacks much easier.
 
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Turtle Freak
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Windows.
 
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Scott Miller
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Turtle Freak wrote:
Windows.

Every building has open windows all along every side? Yeah, not buying it. And for those who plan to use 3D terrain, likely impossible.
 
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Donn Hardy
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Kevin specifically stated that LOS rules were designed to be simple rather than realistic. Period. Don't like it? Then house-rule it.
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Scott Miller
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donnbobhardy wrote:
Kevin specifically stated that LOS rules were designed to be simple rather than realistic. Period. Don't like it? Then house-rule it.

Pretty sure that's exactly what I said.
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Saud M.
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I can make sense of it thematically because in the shows (especially the current one) they often throw shurikens and they travel long distances and make curves along the way. So if a target is behind a building or on the side, you can imagine that they curved it around the building.
 
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Donn Hardy
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PRSthruVOX wrote:
donnbobhardy wrote:
Kevin specifically stated that LOS rules were designed to be simple rather than realistic. Period. Don't like it? Then house-rule it.

Pretty sure that's exactly what I said.


Oops. Great minds.
 
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Joris
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Turtle Freak wrote:
Windows.

Except on the places where there is a billboard on the roof

I'll have to play the game first, but I think that it will be easier to explain some los houserules than curveball-bullets and x-ray vision.
 
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Turtle Freak
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YosT wrote:
Except on the places where there is a billboard on the roof ;)


So imagine there's a wall inside the building underneath where the billboard is. This isn't a physics simulation. I'm genuinely surprised how difficult it is for folks to abstract these concepts out for the sake of simplicity.

Here's a more difficult one for folks to think about: consider how crouching next to blocking terrain that is behind you protects you from attacks in front of you. Sure, you're a smaller target, but then why can't you crouch anywhere?
 
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Saud M.
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Turtle Freak wrote:
YosT wrote:
Except on the places where there is a billboard on the roof


So imagine there's a wall inside the building underneath where the billboard is. This isn't a physics simulation. I'm genuinely surprised how difficult it is for folks to abstract these concepts out for the sake of simplicity.

Here's a more difficult one for folks to think about: consider how crouching next to blocking terrain that is behind you protects you from attacks in front of you. Sure, you're a smaller target, but then why can't you crouch anywhere?

I'm with you on this. There's a certain point when trying to make the game more thematic where it ceases to feel like a board game and becomes a simulation instead.

I'd rather play with the rules the designer intended and they're the ones he tested for balance. I never house rule anything unless I find the mechanic broken in a way.
 
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Scott Miller
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Turtle Freak wrote:
I'm genuinely surprised how difficult it is for folks to abstract these concepts out for the sake of simplicity.

We're not stupid. I understand your point just fine. I just don't find it fun to pretend a building is composed entirely of open windows when, even if there were such a thing, it certainly would not be something you would find on every building. Hell, why not just go with my son's suggestion that Mikey twirls his chucks and hovers like a helicopter? I mean, if we're abstracting...

Nor am I particularly concerned about one simple, common-sense rule suddenly making the game complex. Elevated terrain blocks line of sight between two characters unless they are both on said elevated terrain. How complicated is that? Kevin specifically said the main reason he didn't do it was to keep the text on the cards simple, not that the rule would make the game too complex.
 
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Matthew Cary
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LOS rules always start out simple, but then get weird when they have to deal with various specifics. Kevin has said he limited himself to what would fit on the cards, and LOS rules in many games end up being two paragraphs with a full page of examples and people still argue over them.
For example:
- Does someone close to the building have LOS to someone on a roof ledge above? Doesn't the corner of the roof block LOS?
- If I'm on top of elevated terrain, can I trace line of sight over other elevated terrain? If so, how close does that terrain have to be?
- If you are in the middle of a roof (not the ledge), who on the ground has LOS to you?

I"m not saying these aren't situations that rules could deal with, but this game was meant to play fast and loose, with fairly middle-weight rules and a minimum of rule-book flipping. Basically ignoring elevation in the LOS rules, especially when you have lots of dense allies and sewers is probably a good way to keep down how much you have to worry about.

"Shoot up & take a range penalty, shoot down and don't" works fine for the kinds of up-close martial arts fights that are happening here.
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Eduardo Ortiz
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I have to agree with Scott Miller on this one.

Part of the fun of playing the game is imagining the action as the turns play out. Having to ignore a building's elevation (cause you can see anyone anywhere) kinda obligates you to stop thinking of the board as three dimensional and more of a flat board. This does kinda ruin a tiny bit of the fun for me, as it ruins a tiny bit of the imagination part.

I have played two scenarios already and will continue playing with normal rules for the rest of the campaign, just to get a good feel for the game first. May house rule it afterwards, if so I'll share my experiences. We'll see how that goes.
 
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Joris
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I just got the game and it looks like windows block line of sight (map 3A)
 
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Jason Peacock
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I was just about to post the same question when I seen this post. I was playing correctly but thought it was weird and I came around to this way of thinking: The guys are still on a square on the board but I imagine them in constant motion. If one guy is shooting at a dude around the corner of the building, I imagine that guy creeps up to the corner to peek around and then gets fired at. He runs back a few steps after the attack to regroup. Same with firing at guys on a building. It's unrealistic to shoot at a guy at the far end of the building when you are adjacent to the building on the ground but to me, the guys at the far end of the building are running up to the edge to take a shot and running back and vice versa.
I know how frustrating unrealistic rules can take you out of a thematic game. The Zombicide rules about ALWAYS shooting your buddies first was the worse rule ever made. Oh how I hate that rule and never even tried the game with it. I made a house rule the same as the one they integrated into Black Plague. Was the only way for me to enjoy the game. I can accept this one with the above reasons.

Regards,
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William White
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Agreed. I too, plan on house ruling this as #1: It's a completely absurd idea to have clean LoS through buildings, and #2: the Blocking Terrain tokens give the direct impression that there is no LoS through buildings, especially as set-up in the map illustration in that section, which made me think of concrete pylons in a subway tunnel the way they were placed.
 
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Dangerous Partners
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I just queried this in our group today, the LoS for elevation, and we will probably play it as intended by Kevin (simple) but a figure on the ground right beside a roof being able to see figure 3 or 4 or more spaces back on the roof to me seems even stranger than being able to shoot through buildings (via doors/windows).
 
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