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Subject: Are the designers thinking about a revision of the power tiles? rss

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vorname nachname
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There are some doubts within some experienced players about the balance of the power tiles.

I would like to know if the designers are reading these threads and thinking about the issues some players have.
Do the designers think that the power tiles are still balanced as they are or does it make and extra effort to revisit all the power tiles which they don't want to do in the next future.
Would it make sense to make an updated set of the power tiles to sell as an improvement-kit? Or will new versions of the game be updated with balanced power-tiles?

The issues some players have with the power-tiles:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243797/fixing-problems/pag...
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1080258/ranking-power-tiles
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1536202/thoughts-and-questi...
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1569833/divine-strenght-lev...
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1669542/ta-seti-skill-balan...
(Edited: I edited the links above so that you get to the top of the threads)

I also want to mention

Alejandro Magno
Argentina
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because he seems to played this game a lot, maybe more than the designers (Edited) ...and did good calculations about values of power tiles, worth for the designers to concern. E.g.: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22054669#22054669
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Olli Juhala
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kackarschen wrote:
There are some doubts within some experienced players about the balance of the power tiles.

I would like to know if the designers are reading these threads and thinking about the issues some players have.
Do the designers think that the power tiles are still balanced as they are or does it make and extra effort to revisit all the power tiles which they don't want to do in the next future.
Would it make sense to make an updated set of the power tiles to sell as an improvement-kit? Or will new versions of the game be updated with balanced power-tiles?

The issues some players have with the power-tiles:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243797/fixing-problems/pag...
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20181847#20181847
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22087905#22087905
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22954517#22954517
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1669542/ta-seti-skill-balan...

I also want to mention

Alejandro Magno
Argentina
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because he seems to played this game a lot, maybe more than the
designers.


Out of pure curiosity, if the answer to your questions is no, then what?
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Shader10 wrote:
kackarschen wrote:
There are some doubts within some experienced players about the balance of the power tiles.

I would like to know if the designers are reading these threads and thinking about the issues some players have.
Do the designers think that the power tiles are still balanced as they are or does it make and extra effort to revisit all the power tiles which they don't want to do in the next future.
Would it make sense to make an updated set of the power tiles to sell as an improvement-kit? Or will new versions of the game be updated with balanced power-tiles?

The issues some players have with the power-tiles:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243797/fixing-problems/pag...
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20181847#20181847
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22087905#22087905
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22954517#22954517
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1669542/ta-seti-skill-balan...

I also want to mention

Alejandro Magno
Argentina
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because he seems to played this game a lot, maybe more than the
designers.


Out of pure curiosity, if the answer to your questions is no, then what?


I will run for U.S. presidentship!
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vorname nachname
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... but seriously, what is the point of your question?
What do you expect would happen? The world will collapse, people will burn their copies and go on the streets to protest ...?
I am just curious, if the company is considering to improve the game or are they happy how it is or is it too much effort to spend more time into it...?
Or if they even consider the criticism and see some possible improvements or see that the criticism is not true, based on their experiences?
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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kackarschen wrote:
...because he seems to played this game a lot, maybe more than the designers.

Even if he had played it more than the designers, I'd wonder how deep a player pool he's had access to. Group think is insidious, and often requires fresh viewpoints to challenge assumptions. It's likely the designers had access to a diverse assortment of playtest groups. I'm not offering judgement as I know nothing about the player to whom you're referring, but I am saying that a great number of plays means little if it's with the same faces at the table each time.
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Sphere wrote:
kackarschen wrote:
...because he seems to played this game a lot, maybe more than the designers.

Even if he had played it more than the designers, I'd wonder how deep a player pool he's had access to. Group think is insidious, and often requires fresh viewpoints to challenge assumptions. It's likely the designers had access to a diverse assortment of playtest groups. I'm not offering judgement as I know nothing about the player to whom you're referring, but I am saying that a great number of plays means little if it's with the same faces at the table each time.


Totally agree.
I am referring to him, because his ratings of power tiles are based on calculations of prayer point costs.

E.g.:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22054669#22054669

Which I think is very well-grounded and maybe more precise than "just" playtests.
It doesn't seem that the designers did such calculations.
And based on such calculations I am curious if it makes sense to revisit the balance of the power tiles.

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To each his own. For me, it's the imbalances that make such a game interesting.

If I want analysis and balance I'll play an abstract, e.g. Go. When I play Kemet I want to have fun rampaging about with mythological beasts and trying to survive as others do the same to me. Turning it into a more perfectly balanced bean counting exercise gives me the shudders.


[edit] Thinking more about this, such differences of opinion about which direction the game should go seem inevitable. Kemet successfully straddles the divide between ameritrashers and eurogamers. With a foot in each camp it should be no surprise to see fans advocating for changes in one direction or the other. Isn't that really just another way of saying the existing design is brilliant, and the best argument for leaving the game as is?
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But bean counting just depends on you. You don't need to do it. And people can do bean counting with unbalanced power tiles too.
But balanced power tiles would increase the path of strategies.
And I don't see how this could stop having fun with rampaging with mythological beasts.
 
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Sphere wrote:
Thinking more about this, such differences of opinion about which direction the game should go seem inevitable. Kemet successfully straddles the divide between ameritrashers and eurogamers. With a foot in each camp it should be no surprise to see fans advocating for changes in one direction or the other. Isn't that really just another way of saying the existing design is brilliant, and the best argument for leaving the game as is?


I guess the more a game is played over the time by many players the more people see chances to polish the game, see overpowered cards etc.
Especially with a game like Kemet where you have such a variety of special powers.
A lot of games get improved with e.g. cards taken out and new cards taken in. (Agricola, Dominion, Cosmic Encounter, ...)
 
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I'd counter that a lot of games get expansions that lose sight of what made the game great in the first place.

The other thing that I think is worth consideration is what market is the publisher shooting for? Looking at recorded plays, I see one guy with 617, and the second and third place guys at 33 and 30. Then it tails off rapidly, with the largest group on that first page having 10 plays each.

Now consider that there are 57 pages of users with recorded plays at 100 per page. It sounds to me as if the changes you'd like to see would be mostly for the benefit of the dude with 600 plus. And even that isn't a given - he might play that much because he likes the game just like it is, same as me.

If I were the designer I'd be thinking about my next design, not tweaks for this one. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
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Olli Juhala
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Sphere wrote:
I'd counter that a lot of games get expansions that lose sight of what made the game great in the first place.

The other thing that I think is worth consideration is what market is the publisher shooting for? Looking at recorded plays, I see one guy with 617, and the second and third place guys at 33 and 30. Then it tails off rapidly, with the largest group on that first page having 10 plays each.



...617 is a ridiculous number of plays, so I'd be rather interested to know what the conditions are.
 
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Gerard Dranger
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Sphere wrote:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


Agree, I think it is not a problem at all. Some tiles are worth a bit less or more than other tiles with the same price, but they had to fit a 4x4 table.

Slaves for example...it is not worth 2 PP but IMO you get this tile for 1PP (with priestess) only when you are racing for a creature with another player and for example realize you have a pyramid you need to maximize right now and are short in PP to do so. Emergency tile.

So basically this tile is not interesting to build a strategy, but can become the key to win a pyramid race with another player. In such situation it may become for an instant very valuable for you in the game.

And the same apply for most tiles: their real value is more than a reward/cost it heavily changes during the game. Level 1/2 tiles become almost worthless in the end game unless special cases like above. Snake may become suddently very important against an opponent with strong creatures, the tiles giving you 7 troops may become key against an opponent with initiative, even if it's price is 2PP only.
 
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Gerard Dranger
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I was thinking a little bit more about the price of white tiles (they are the "easiest" to evaluate as most of them give PP.

I see at least two different elements in the evaluation of a tile:

- Long term reward: How many PP it allows you to save/earn on the entire game. High Priest has strong long term reward, Slaves offers weak long term reward.

- Short term reward: High Priest has weak short term reward (you need two days to get something for it), while Slaves allow you to save up to 1-2 PP immediately if you maximize a 0-1 level pyramid.

Starting with a level 2 white pyramid and level 1 red pyramid, without capturing any temple.
- If I buy Slaves tile I end with maxed white pyramid, maxed red pyramid, 4 PP to buy other tiles.
- If I buy High Priest I end with maxed white pyramid, maxed red pyramid, 1 PP.
- If I buy Priest I end with maxed white pyramid, red pyramid at level 3, 0PP.

On the short term, Slaves> High Priest> Priest.
Knowing how an early advantage can snowball, the short term reward aspect of a tile is important in the pricing too.
It also makes the Slaves tile interesting later in the game too because with 6PP you can max out your level 0 pyramid if you realize you need it at once.
 
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Alejandro Magno
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I think a good alternative to just improve or change the tiles is to just create a good rule to randomize banks.

Ive not been playing a single game of kemet in the last 4 months, mostly because i got tired of how anyone decent at the game, just basically have a build order.
Eliminating the interesting power tile acquisition part of the game.

Basically the tile pool is tight enough in 5 players, but any lower and people just can build sick combos. This is even worse if you play with all 4 colors at the same times as most people now wnat to play. So in a way the expansion hurted my experience.

Right now i refuse to play with anything less than 5 players, and even then, only 3 colors.

I think it would be interesting if someone can come up with a way to limit/randomize the pool with less than 5 players.
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Gabriel N
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I like having the four color power tiles available. I think having more power tiles is always good, and yes, players can create sick combos, but with more tiles there are more combos to create so more players will be able to create them and there will be more strategic choices to be made during the game. I just think that power tiles should be revised, because some of them seem to be in the wrong level (i.e Hand of God should be level 4 instead of level 3).

I have not played the game as much as you, but still, I have found that the game is way more balanced when more power tiles are available, so I always play with the four colors.
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Alejandro Magno
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Sure, now all 3 players can go to a sick combo, but that is the point, there is no Tactical changes, is basically 3 or 4 players going for their sick combo and have a fight of combos, if my first 2 or 3 tiles define what are the rest of the tiles im gonna buy, it loses a lot of the appeal.

So I don´t think the combos are good, because they pidgeonhole your build.
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Martin J.

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I was thinking about to buy the game.

Would it more balance the game if the pyramids can have a might of max. 8 points?
For example
4-4-0 or 4-3-1 or 4-2-2 or 3-3-2?!

Or just choose 2 colors maybe hidden at the start of a game?

I dont know the game yet but all the tiles looking useful.
 
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Niko J
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I haven't found any balance issues that would be fixed by an arbitrary pyramid limit.

Choosing two colours pre-game secretly wouldn't make any sense since you must start with either 1/1/1 for all colours or 2/1/0. You'd also be less able to adapt during game if you were locked out of a certain colour pre-game.

I will offer the caveat that I haven't played this 600 times but I wouldn't worry about balance issues if you're thinking about buying.
 
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