Tony Alonzo
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What the....

I just saw another Kickstarter from Flying Frog titled SoB: Forbidden Fortress.

I see a huge problem with them trying to secure funding for another game, when I Kickstarted the original SoB set on November 24, 2013, and still dont have my 2nd wave product yet.

I have all but 2 of Flying Frog's games ever produced, but this is just getting out of hand IMO, especially when I see product sitting on store shelves for over a year that was part of my Kickstarter, but I still don't own it myself.

Its not right FFG, not right at all.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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I guess FFP should just sit on their asses while they're waiting for the production shops to print up all the material instead of working on new games?

-shnar
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Ken H.
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habanero wrote:
What the....


They are definitely aware of the bad feelings, and are managing this one in a much more sane manner. You should look into pledging it -- lots of great stuff so far.

They've also said Wave 2 pledges from the first KS should start shipping next month, or possibly in January. All of the material is at the factory, so there is literally no more work to be done on it, and therefore no reason not to start the next project.
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Rubric wrote:
habanero wrote:
What the....


They are definitely aware of the bad feelings, and are managing this one in a much more sane manner. You should look into pledging it -- lots of great stuff so far.

They've also said Wave 2 pledges from the first KS should start shipping next month, or possibly in January. All of the material is at the factory, so there is literally no more work to be done on it, and therefore no reason not to start the next project.


The main reason could be to avoid all negative comments and perception from original Kickstarter backers.

I don't believe that they couldn't work on new project for few months without starting new campaign that pissed off many people.

You know, before Kickstarter all companies were able to create game and only then collect money for it and not vice a versa.

And therefore I'm not surprised with the current status of new campaign: a week with zero and even negative dynamics around 675K in spite of all effort (social SG, add-ons).

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FFP stated that its designer and art director have wrapped all work on OGSOB.
What do you expect them to do? Sit on the butt while the game is being manufactured?
It is natural and logical that once a game is in production, the creative team go to work on new games/expansions.
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George
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I understand the complaint. For me though, SOBS was an extraordinary project. They said we were funding 3 years of product line and that was literally true. They did deliver the base sets on time, offered a wave 1.5 and still there is so much product left to deliver for wave 2 that the delay to complete it all is understandable. Especially how they've obviously upgraded and fleshed out much of their original ideas (e.g. Trederra). This isn't the typical launch another KS before I even got my first game situation, imo.
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Jason Daniels
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habanero wrote:
What the....

I just saw another Kickstarter from Flying Frog titled SoB: Forbidden Fortress.

I see a huge problem with them trying to secure funding for another game, when I Kickstarted the original SoB set on November 24, 2013, and still dont have my 2nd wave product yet.

I have all but 2 of Flying Frog's games ever produced, but this is just getting out of hand IMO, especially when I see product sitting on store shelves for over a year that was part of my Kickstarter, but I still don't own it myself.

Its not right FFG, not right at all.


This campaign is good for you. With wave 2 starting to move around the globe next month, FFP needs the influx of cash to make sure deliveries happen. I base this on comments made by the team that the original campaign was too generous and cost them money. They even outright said that things went to retail when they did so they could pay bills.

edit: That's also why we in the current campaign aren't getting nearly as good of a deal as you did
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habanero wrote:
Its not right FFG, not right at all.


Actually, that's how FFG has been doing it for *years*. They'll have one game in design, another being at the printers, and another being shipped.

I don't think Fantasy Flight Games is crowdfunding, though. laugh

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Geoff Knox
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habanero wrote:
especially when I see product sitting on store shelves for over a year that was part of my Kickstarter, but I still don't own it myself.

Its not right FFG, not right at all.


So when you receive your wave 2 shipment and have product in your hands that won't be available at retail for some time, will you feel better?
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Mike
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If the money they raise in this one helps keep them solvent so they can afford to deliver the first one, I'm all for it.
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shnar wrote:
I guess FFP should just sit on their asses while they're waiting for the production shops to print up all the material instead of working on new games?

-shnar


Yeah, it's not like they have other games they could be working on.
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Jonathan Sullivan
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I was one of the original kickstarters. I didn't want to pay $50 for 1.5 shipping (and I didn't...).

I was upset that the game appeared in retail before I got it as a backer.

I grabbed an early bird pledge for the Shotgun level, without any issues or complaints. I'm excited for more Shadows to arrive in a year or so.

I don't really understand the complaints about how long it will take to deliver. Most kickstarters for bigger games are almost a year to wait, if not more... Deep Madness that everyone is excited about is in late 2017, about 4 months prior to Shadows.

I can look through all the games I've backed on kickstarter and they all have a deliver date that is pretty far in the future. I've almost reached the point where I get new games every month or so, just because I've kickstarted so many.

Best of luck to the FFG people, I hope this kickstarter surpasses the last one.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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I don't understand why the complain is targeted at FFP. CMON does the same thing, gets another kickstarter going before their previous one has completely finished waves 2/3...

-shnar
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
shnar wrote:
I guess FFP should just sit on their asses while they're waiting for the production shops to print up all the material instead of working on new games?

-shnar


Yeah, it's not like they have other games they could be working on.

Eh, the other games ain't makin them money like Shadows (I guess). Plus, they're kind of saturated with expansions anyways (wait, so is Shadows)...

-shnar
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Martin Gallo
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Just as a general statement there are a lot of people who have never worked retail or run a small business and simply do not comprehend the concept of cash flow. The FFG model of one in production, one on the shelf and one in design is mostly a good way to go as long as the cash reserve to survive a sales slowdown (or other problem) is available.
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shnar wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
shnar wrote:
I guess FFP should just sit on their asses while they're waiting for the production shops to print up all the material instead of working on new games?

-shnar


Yeah, it's not like they have other games they could be working on.

Eh, the other games ain't makin them money like Shadows (I guess). Plus, they're kind of saturated with expansions anyways (wait, so is Shadows)...

-shnar


I thought they lost money on shadows.
 
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Josh Murphy
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Just on the ks pledges, I think. Retail seems to be doing well enough.
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mike heim
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Wow! A lot of blind loyalty from Bryce Nielsen.

It's completely understandable to be upset that they don't have the product that their money paid for to make happen. Especially when you can get most of it through retail right now.

----

At GenCon there were a few backers wanting to pickup items from their Wave 2 order right there and save FlyingFrog shipping charges. They were told no and that the minis andexpansions were for sale, not for backers.

Pretty screwed up to me whistle
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Geoff Knox
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kzinti wrote:
Wow! A lot of blind loyalty from Bryce Nielsen.

It's completely understandable to be upset that they don't have the product that their money paid for to make happen. Especially when you can get most of it through retail right now.

----

At GenCon there were a few backers wanting to pickup items from their Wave 2 order right there and save FlyingFrog shipping charges. They were told no and that the minis andexpansions were for sale, not for backers.

Pretty screwed up to me whistle


It's completely understandable to (not) be upset that they don't have the product that their money paid for (at a steep discount) to make happen. Especially when you can get most some of it through retail right now (and they will still get much of it before it is available at retail).

And backers had the option to pick up at GenCon, but either had to chip in to ship it there (because that's a lot of product to haul out based on someone saying they will pick it up) or just settle for the Trederra box- which could be picked up without the need to let them know. Limited quantities available though, because you can't expect them to haul their warehouse around with them to GenCon.

Sounds pretty fair to me whistle
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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kzinti wrote:


----

At GenCon there were a few backers wanting to pickup items from their Wave 2 order right there and save FlyingFrog shipping charges. They were told no and that the minis andexpansions were for sale, not for backers.

Pretty screwed up to me whistle


And that's why your a game designer and not a publisher, because what sounds skrewed up to you is actually what keeps a business operating.

No need to pass judgement on something you know little about.

Jorune
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shnar wrote:
I don't understand why the complain is targeted at FFP. CMON does the same thing, gets another kickstarter going before their previous one has completely finished waves 2/3...


Then you need to understand why.

CMON has a longer track record of delivering their KS, and have done it better than FFP. Additionally, they didn't have an "all in one" pledge that turned out to be "all in one except for this, this, and this". CMON, at least lately, has not taken three years to deliver a project. And CMON has not asked for a Wave 1.5 shipping fee.

Now, ALONE, if this was the only issue FFP has with this campaign, I don't think it would be an issue. But funding dropped dramatically on the third day ($27K per day), and is down to less than $6K per day, with some days in the negative. I'm thinking that late delivery is another factor causing funding to be lower than many backers expected.
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Mike Forrey
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
shnar wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
shnar wrote:
I guess FFP should just sit on their asses while they're waiting for the production shops to print up all the material instead of working on new games?

-shnar


Yeah, it's not like they have other games they could be working on.

Eh, the other games ain't makin them money like Shadows (I guess). Plus, they're kind of saturated with expansions anyways (wait, so is Shadows)...

-shnar


I thought they lost money on shadows.


they did they in fact from their own mouths took a beating. I'm also saddened that they are spending all their time on this line and just ignoring all their other game lines. I'll assume it's because they lost so much on the first SoB that they need to do this to stay solvent.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Sam and Max wrote:
shnar wrote:
I don't understand why the complain is targeted at FFP. CMON does the same thing, gets another kickstarter going before their previous one has completely finished waves 2/3...


Then you need to understand why.

CMON has a longer track record of delivering their KS, and have done it better than FFP. Additionally, they didn't have an "all in one" pledge that turned out to be "all in one except for this, this, and this". CMON, at least lately, has not taken three years to deliver a project. And CMON has not asked for a Wave 1.5 shipping fee.

Now, ALONE, if this was the only issue FFP has with this campaign, I don't think it would be an issue. But funding dropped dramatically on the third day ($27K per day), and is down to less than $6K per day, with some days in the negative. I'm thinking that late delivery is another factor causing funding to be lower than many backers expected.

Eh, CMON's first venture was a lot like Shadows, though frankly Shadows was more what Kickstarter is for, napkin ideas with some risk. CMON now has quite a few kickstarter games under their belt and are better able to predict costs and timings. But they *still* do other kickstarters before they've fully fulfilled their previous ones, so no, I don't understand this particular outcry...

-shnar

P.S. I'm not sure how comparing two companies equates to "blind loyalty".
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
shnar wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
shnar wrote:
I guess FFP should just sit on their asses while they're waiting for the production shops to print up all the material instead of working on new games?

-shnar


Yeah, it's not like they have other games they could be working on.

Eh, the other games ain't makin them money like Shadows (I guess). Plus, they're kind of saturated with expansions anyways (wait, so is Shadows)...

-shnar


I thought they lost money on shadows.

Maybe "making money" are the wrong words. "Selling" is probably better.

-shnar
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Sam and Max wrote:
shnar wrote:
I don't understand why the complain is targeted at FFP. CMON does the same thing, gets another kickstarter going before their previous one has completely finished waves 2/3...


Then you need to understand why.

CMON has a longer track record of delivering their KS, and have done it better than FFP. Additionally, they didn't have an "all in one" pledge that turned out to be "all in one except for this, this, and this". CMON, at least lately, has not taken three years to deliver a project. And CMON has not asked for a Wave 1.5 shipping fee.

Now, ALONE, if this was the only issue FFP has with this campaign, I don't think it would be an issue. But funding dropped dramatically on the third day ($27K per day), and is down to less than $6K per day, with some days in the negative. I'm thinking that late delivery is another factor causing funding to be lower than many backers expected.


People are waiting for a large quantity of content to be delivered that far surpasses the material of the base games that were delivered. I personally find it difficult to make a $$ purchase that could yet double that again knowing that so much content is already on the way and is untouched and unplayed. Waiting till after delivery could have the opposite affect. I just received all this awesome content. I need more, more, more. Not the current - huh, this was ordered three years ago - what exactly was I getting again? This may look attractive to the gotta have it all category but I do not know about anyone else.

Plus the 1.5 wave $50 shipping fee for within the US and the let's try and make a profit off those who are the biggest fans and cannot wait attitude.

*EDIT. There is also the current trend in Kickstarter that there will be a big LATE PLEDGE button on the kickstarter page so that I can get my stuff and still pledge later if I am intrigued. If not. C'est la vie.
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