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Subject: Anyone else underwhelmed? rss

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Daniel Eig
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Fantastic bits - but this type of incremental set collection has been done before - and better (Princes of Florence).

Just seems that it could have used a few more rounds of design - in a lot of ways its very complex (an amazingly large amount of different chits are needed for the high level shows) - but at the same time the only really meaningful interaction is during the chit bidding - while the shows are just first come first serve. Why aren't the performance/show cards up for bid as well?
 
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Chris Bailey
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I think it does what it's supposed to do very well. Remember, it's not supposed to be a "Meaty Gamers Game" like Princes of Florence. It's for families. I know it's gotten mixed reviews, particularly at the Gathering but I like it. If you want to put the shows up for bid you certainly can. You can also do an open bidding on the chits so you have an opportunity to get more then one lot per turn.
 
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Huzonfirst
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Daniel, if you want a more gamerly version, I recommend the "Intense Auctions" official variant, which is the way Kramer himself plays it. It makes the auctions much more interesting and makes money considerably more significant. It also makes it more feasible to put on those big shows. In many ways, it feels like that was the original design, but DoW substituted the published rules to make it more family friendly.

I suspect you don't bid for shows because there usually isn't too much overlap among the players. I can see an occasional battle over a particular show, but I'd think most of the time there would be no contention over it. Making it a investment purchase seems to work well (and makes those choices more interesting).

I agree it isn't a Princes of Florence, but with the Intense Auctions rules it's an interesting game. I look forward to giving it more plays.
 
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alan beaumont
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It left me equally unmoved, although I wouldn't kick it off the table yet, if anyone would care to buy it! Not so much complex - none of the rules or mechanisms is difficult - but certainly fiddly.
My problem was that the tiles come into the game so slowly. We were playing a 5 player (probably not ideal) and another player took the event I had my eye on. In effect they had 'cloned' my strategy. (This wasn't obvious from checking their previous acquisitions) I found adapting was like turning a huge supertanker - you could do it but ohhh soooo slooowly.
I felt the game would be better if you could either pay to add in an extra tile to the auctions (no guarantee of success, maybe as a carrot tactic to drain off future rival bidders) or, more radically, if shows were not a simple choice off the menu, but instead you put them together yourself, either from a start and finish selection, or as a beginning, middle and end. This would be a major redesign, but it would feel more like putting together an event to me.
As it is I feel there is more fun in Dream Factory aka Traumfabrik. I was hoping Colosseum would be an improvement. It isn't.
shake
 
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George Kinney
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Its a DoW game. They are all low on the weight/complexity scale. They are squarely targeted at the general population, not the gamer audience. Although I'm sure they don't mind selling to either.

 
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Daniel Eig
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3 replies in one!

Chris,
I have a hard time swallowing this as a family game. It sure has the chrome - but I just can't see anyone's family staring up and down the show chart to see what their chits best fit, and calling that fun. If thats the market its aiming for, its well off the target.

Alan,
The same thing happened to me on my play - my target event was taken, it was a 5 player game, and I felt I really had to strain to move over to another strategy.

The fact that another game released recently (Leonardo DaVinci) felt very similiar (and also left me underwhelmed), probably didn't help my opinion either.

Larry,
I'm almost certain I'll try this again - if so I'll see if intense auctions make a difference.

thanks,
Daniel
 
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Chris Bailey
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I played it once and thought the decisions were pretty straightforward. The events were "specialized" in certain areas too, so I just used events that didn't use the same chits other people were needing. As you get bigger events, there are events that use your existing chits from previous events. I don't see this as Princes of Florence or Leonardo DaVinci but a light alternative with a little luck thrown in.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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It's a family game. That's what Days is out to make. This is a fantastic family game.

I think it's interestic that you can make a game using more Gamer-Gamey mechanics and still keep it light.
 
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If Actions Speak Louder Than Words, Then Actions x2 Speak Louder Than Actions
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I would say that I am sufficiently whelmed.
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alan beaumont
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Quote:
This is a fantastic family game
Really?
Seems way to many rules compared to the Carcasonnes.
Auctions, collections, involved turn sequence, non-intuitive victory conditions (not how much you earn, but getting the best single pay-off)
Takes a long time too. It is pretty though.
Must be a pretty dedicated family.
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Thomas Taylor
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Honestly after some of the middling press I'd seen here on the geek I was prepared to be underwhelmed.

I busted it out in a 3p game over the weekend and found myself to be quite into this little game. Granted the standard auction/trading was a little dull, but I intend to try the Intense Auctions variant tonight with 5 players.

I'm looking forward to it. I enjoy this game more than I thought I would, and it fills a very good with the girlfriend sort of niche for me. Which is important.

Thanks DOW.
 
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David McLeod
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I'm enjoying this title so far although it certainly addssome strange twists (call it fiddly if you'd like) to your good old auction game. In a way this game reminds me of Kramer's Bison game in that you are constantly managing what you've got throughout the game and that your first (and subsequent) round score will not have anything to do with your final round score. Your just building throughout which I find very appealing theme wise. Perhaps this is why we enjoyed it so much as we felt like we were going from small time promoter and aiming to be the big wig of Rome by the end.

As for this being a family game. I'd have to say that I'd agree that it is. Perhaps it's medium-heavy on the family game scale. I think it's important to remember that DOW games are available in places other then your FLGS (at least in Canada) and that families who shop in non-flgs might see this pop on the shelf and say "Well, we enjoyed Ticket to Ride so let's see how this goes." I have no doubt that it could work very well within a family environment. Once you get the rules and mechanics down,this game is fairly straight forward. I'd also say that the game is designed in such a way that no one can play so bad as to keep them completely out of the game. A key element to a family game.

 
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Bill Bass
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misteralan wrote:
We were playing a 5 player (probably not ideal) and another player took the event I had my eye on. In effect they had 'cloned' my strategy. (This wasn't obvious from checking their previous acquisitions) I found adapting was like turning a huge supertanker - you could do it but ohhh soooo slooowly.

Alan, you have struck upon my biggest problem with the game. With only 5 turns, there simply is not the opportunity to be nimble enough to 'switch gears' if someone else decides to buy the program you have been building towards for the first 2-3 turns of the game. So basically, to maximize your score, you need to form a plan early and set a goal, so that you have the time to acquire the tiles needed to make a decent showing of that program, but it is far too easy for someone earlier in the turn order to pull the rug out from under you by purchasing that program, even if they have very few of the tiles that pertain to that program.

This could be done for a number of reasons - defensively, because they realize that you are set up to rack up an insurmountable lead if you manage to get that last piece of the puzzle; offensively, if they choose to see the game as being an overtly cutthroat affair; or, more likely, somewhere in between, where they think they can both slow you down, and make a halfway decent show for themselves in the process.

In case it is not obvious by now, this happened to me in the last game I played, and it really made the last 2 turns (which is almost half the game, remember) seem incredibly futile, since there were no other programs that lent themselves to the tiles that I had accumulated even half as well as the program I had been working towards. I was careful to examine the tile sets the other three players were accumulating, to try to insure that I was not overlapping with another player's apparent game plan, but that did not help. Overall, a *very* disheartening and frustrating experience.

I think something is needed here, and a pretty good (if not very good) game can be salvaged from this - either add more programs, so that there are reasonable alternatives if one of your 'target' programs is purchased before you get the chance, or possibly making the programs an auctioned item, rather than just being bought outright in turn order. At least those are the fixes that seem most apparent to me, there may be other solutions that are better than these.

Ragardless of the method, I seriously believe this game needs fixin'.
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alan beaumont
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Tazzmann wrote:
misteralan wrote:
We were playing a 5 player (probably not ideal) and another player took the event I had my eye on. In effect they had 'cloned' my strategy. (This wasn't obvious from checking their previous acquisitions) I found adapting was like turning a huge supertanker - you could do it but ohhh soooo slooowly.

Alan, you have struck upon my biggest problem with the game. With only 5 turns, there simply is not the opportunity to be nimble enough to 'switch gears' if someone else decides to buy the program you have been building towards for the first 2-3 turns of the game.... I seriously believe this game needs fixin'.

Blimey, I said something someone agrees with, it's taken years but...

I prefer the Traumfabrik approach where for some of the show anything will do. As it is no one in my group has brought Colosseum to the table since, so I suppose I don't need to worry.
 
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