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Mythic Battles: Pantheon» Forums » General

Subject: A Poll, and Discussing the Issues with the Artemis Figure rss

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Evan Chauvette
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There has been enough discussion on the Kickstarer page regarding the Artemis figurine to warrant a post to see just where the backers and those on the fence think.

Visit the KS page here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/806316071/mythic-battle...

There is a great deal of discussion as to whether the figure looks odd and needs tweaking, is too sexualized, or is fine the way it is.

What do you think?

Do you really think that Monolith should redesign this mini?





Poll
Should Monolith redesign Artemis?
No, she is fine as is.
Yes, her mold is unnatural.
Yes, it is too gratuitous.
      301 answers
Poll created by JusticeProctor
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Re: Artemisgate
Poll
How do you expect the new render to turn out?
A lot better
Slightly better
About the same as the old one
Actually a bit worse
A lot worse
Don't care/other
      135 answers
Poll created by Teowulff


Of course there's people that will be ok with the current Artemis.

Hard to tell if you're not going to like the v2.0 a lot more though ..

What about option d) "No, but I see plenty of room for improvement"
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Re: Artemisgate
The post and amount of cleavage changes between the conceptual art and final sculpt. Monolith is going to have another version available to show us later on. I think it's a pretty smart idea to do this for controversial models.





Quote:

We’ve been following the discussion about Artemis’ sculpt in the comments section. As we have said before, it is important to us that we meet our delivery deadline of December 2017, and don’t want to waste all the time and effort we put into getting prepared for this Kickstarter by starting to change lots of models now, thus triggering delays for everyone.

However, in this particular case it looks like it might be possible to make some small changes. This is only possible because of a combination of things all being true: the model has not been tooled yet, the sculpt was 3D digital rather than traditional putty, and the sculptor happens to have a window of time we can exploit.

Whether this results in a miniature which is considered a step forwards or backwards is something we shall have to wait and see. But, (some of) you were very vocal about this, and, at the risk of upsetting other people who liked the original, we have listened. Whilst nobody can please everyone all the time, we like to do what we can, when we can.

So, please have a little patience and hold your judgement on whether this was a good idea or not until we have the new version to show you.


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/806316071/mythic-battle...
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Weresheep of Sin
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Re: Artemisgate
Honestly, with saying "should they forward the cash to redesign (which was NEVER said by Monolith, they were talking about small changes) this BEAUTIFUL mini" this poll is extremely biased and not really very representative.
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David E
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Re: Artemisgate
It's kind of like Echo - I'd be fine with a half-naked nymph, even cheesecake, but the G-string just looks... unnatural. The art for Artemis is fine, but as sculpted it looks like she was just given a gratuitous boob window.
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Evan Chauvette
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Re: Artemisgate
Of course, but the real point of interest is whether it's an overwhelming majority or just a few.

It's very, very easy for someone to complain on the internet. The cost of re-hiring artists, making 3-d models, printing proofs, etc is a laborious and expensive process.

Going through all that rigamarole because a vocal minority complains is a ridiculous amount of cost and shouldn't be expected due to small number of complaints.
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Gustavo Sanchez
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Re: Artemisgate
Sam and Max wrote:
The post and amount of cleavage changes between the conceptual art and final sculpt. Monolith is going to have another version available to show us later on. I think it's a pretty smart idea to do this for controversial models.





Quote:

We’ve been following the discussion about Artemis’ sculpt in the comments section. As we have said before, it is important to us that we meet our delivery deadline of December 2017, and don’t want to waste all the time and effort we put into getting prepared for this Kickstarter by starting to change lots of models now, thus triggering delays for everyone.

However, in this particular case it looks like it might be possible to make some small changes. This is only possible because of a combination of things all being true: the model has not been tooled yet, the sculpt was 3D digital rather than traditional putty, and the sculptor happens to have a window of time we can exploit.

Whether this results in a miniature which is considered a step forwards or backwards is something we shall have to wait and see. But, (some of) you were very vocal about this, and, at the risk of upsetting other people who liked the original, we have listened. Whilst nobody can please everyone all the time, we like to do what we can, when we can.

So, please have a little patience and hold your judgement on whether this was a good idea or not until we have the new version to show you.


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/806316071/mythic-battle...


Jeez. The things some people complain about...
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Weresheep of Sin
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Re: Artemisgate
JusticeProctor wrote:
Of course, but the real point of interest is whether it's an overwhelming majority or just a few.

It's very, very easy for someone to complain on the internet. The cost of re-hiring artists, making 3-d models, printing proofs, etc is a laborious and expensive process.

Going through all that rigamarole because a vocal minority complains is a ridiculous amount of cost and shouldn't be expected due to small number of complaints.


Did you read Monolith's update? There is one sculptor, it's a digital sculpt, not printed yet and the sculptor has on open time window ... and we are talking about small changes. Whether it is a vocal minority or not is not really clear and your poll - biased as it is - will not help to make it clear.
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Evan Chauvette
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Re: Artemisgate
Indeed! In a game with a bazillion minis, purchased by people that likely have hundreds if not thousands of dollar of games in their collection, get upset and up in arms because a single model doesn't agree with...something. Anything.

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Denis Litvak
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Re: Artemisgate
This poll seems a bit front-loaded to me. Where is the option to have the model tweaked to have the fabric of her blouse fall more naturally? Calling it a redesign is a bit disingenuous.

This would take little time and effort on the sculptor's parts since its done entirely in 3D software. Who knows if that would even cost them any cash, depending on the contract they have with the artist?

Also calling it Artemisgate sounds a bit condescending to those who are criticizing a poor aspect of the sculpt (which happens to be the focal point of the sculpt).
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Peter Cruickshanks
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Re: Artemisgate
Like most have said, and like the poll shows, most don't give a shit about tits or not. The fall of the fabric/dress and the hair + her browline and rather dull pose make her very bland.

What I see as problem areas:


Plus I wouldn't mind her pose being a bit more "floaty" like the concept and maybe her hair a bit less static.
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Re: Artemisgate
of course she need a fix.
The cleavage is just badly sculpted and doesn't make sense.


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steve smith
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Re: Artemisgate
This is somewhat amusing.
The art shows her top as open and loose all the way to the waist.
The model shows the left side of her top tucked in underneath the right side before it reaches her belt. Which is why it is holding tighter to her body.
Tuck your T-shirt into your pants and then tell me why it isn't moving around as freely as it is now...

First Conan SG's which could have increased the funding, and now this.
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Ben Clapperton
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Re: Artemisgate
I think the tunic could flow better, but the amount I care about this whole thing is somewhere around zero. If they tweak a few things here and there and it improves the sculpt then fine, if they leave it as it is then fine too. What should have been a minor discussion point has got way out of hand.
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Adam Tyson
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Re: Artemisgate
I don't like it but I just think it needs altering not any grand sweeping changes that are going to take up plenty of time and money.
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Aditya C
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Re: Artemisgate
Honestly, most of these don't bother me and Atalanta was a great example of a mostly nude character that didn't generate any hatred for that because it fit her theme.

Artemis being nude or semi nude wouldn't be a problem. This particular sculpt, however, looks horrendously cartoonish. The cleavage in the clothing is completely unnatural and has weird folds. It looks like she just flashed someone at Mardi Gras. And her facial expressions are very bland.

There is no problem with nudity, but making her a pinup model is just a bizarre artistic choice that doesn't fit the rest of the game at all. She doesn't even look like the classical nude character.
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Bogdan Alexandru Barbu
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Re: Artemisgate
In my opinion the right pose for Artemis can be found at the intersection of two concepts:
1. Virgin Goddess of the Moon and protector of virginity. Also she was Goddess of childbirth, giver and curer of diseases to young women.
2. Goddess guardian of wilderness and of wild life.

Thus she is pure to an extreme, but not naive nor innocent. She did love Orion, but she accidentally killed him, consequently taking a vow of chastity. She is nurturing to a point, yet once that edge is crossed she becomes a swift and merciless huntress of trespassers.

Personally I believe that her sculpt should aim at impersonating most of these attributes and roles.

1. Stern, pure, serene, merciless but never cruel or blood thirsty, relentless.

2. Powerful yet nimble, fast and accurate, agile

3. As a guardian of nature, living in the wilderness among wild beast she would place function above fashion and her entire appearance would reflect that (hair tied behind the back of the head for not interfering with arrow drawing and bow aiming, body shaped clothing to enhance hunting and running, any degree of nudity would be functionally linked to bow handling and to swift movement dictated by chase and thus would never feel gratuitous or sexual).

*Note: Amazons venerated Artemis and allegedly went as far as to sever the right breast for proper bow string tensing and arrow drawing. It is also interesting to note that nowhere Artemis is represented one breasted and probably that would be an extreme approach to represent her in the miniature.


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Re: Artemisgate
Bogdan the thing about Amazons severing the right breast has repeatedly been disproven, and I do mean repeatedly. As in every time historians talk about Amazons, one of the first things they do is address this story that for some reason keeps cropping up, it is as bad as "Napoleon was short" when he actually wasn't. He was 5'8 or 5'9, which is close to average for men. The idea that that the Artemis sculpt should further misrepresent the Amazons is bad and does even more harm in continuing that incorrect claim.
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Max Maloney
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Re: Artemisgate
Things I don't like about the sculpt/art:

She seems white-washed (i.e., blond/Germanic rather than Mediterranean/Grecian).

Her pose is stiff and uninspired. I would expect Artemis to reflect agility and athleticism.

The way the cleavage is revealed by the parting folds of her garment is simply unrealistic. It is positioned as if being pulled apart like curtains, but where are he invisible hands doing so? I don't mind the revealing element of it; hell, I wouldn't care if she were topless. But make it look real.
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Oliver Kanand
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Re: Artemisgate
Made a quick edit. I think it should be something like this to look more natural (picture changes every 2 seconds).

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Bogdan Alexandru Barbu
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Re: Artemisgate
Westonard wrote:
Bogdan the thing about Amazons severing the right breast has repeatedly been disproven, and I do mean repeatedly. As in every time historians talk about Amazons, one of the first things they do is address this story that for some reason keeps cropping up, it is as bad as "Napoleon was short" when he actually wasn't. He was 5'8 or 5'9, which is close to average for men. The idea that that the Artemis sculpt should further misrepresent the Amazons is bad and does even more harm in continuing that incorrect claim.


Probably I should have underlined the "allegedly" in my note. I don't want to start an academic debate over the amazons topic here and as you can read from my note I am not supporting this debatable extreme choice for a popular game.
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Sammy
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Re: Artemisgate
I thought it was a shame this mini didn't match her art...which is much nicer overall.
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Tom Shydler
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Re: Artemisgate
Other than this being something connected to boardgamers, it is truly hard to understand why anyone would get actively upset with this mini. As regards meeting my personal preferences, I can think of major and "minor" corrections to just about every mini included in this game (starting with the ridiculous sculpts for Minos and Prometheus). Of course that would be silly (and selfish). I accept the designer's choices...or I don't buy the game. And for one mini out of 90, this is a sad comment on people having too much time on their hands.
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Re: Artemisgate
Yeah, seems we have to much time :) I think the gods are the central miniatures in game, they are quite a bit larger than most other miniatures apart from some big monsters and the Titans of course and they are the centre of your army. So they should standing out somehow. Planing to paint this whole thing, doing this I will take special care of the Gods. A beautiful mini is the basic for a good paint job.
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Re: Artemisgate
Skiprydell wrote:
Other than this being something connected to boardgamers, it is truly hard to understand why anyone would get actively upset with this mini.


Because, as said, it's a stiff pose and the blouse opens unnaturally and the keyhole is way too big. In the original art, the pose is more active, so the peek is fine.

EDIT: During today's live MB chat, Leo said he didn't like the sculpt, saying the cleaveage was unnatural (or something to that effect). MB will be showing us another version, so we can decide then.

If you take a look at how she was originally depicted by Greek sculptors, you get this. So, from a purist angle, giving her a keyhole is no different than putting clothes on a Conan female.

Still, with that being said, I'd support a $50 Paolo Parente add-on, with Poseidon nymphs, dryads aplenty, sexy medusa, teenage Artemis and Diana, and MILF Hera and Athena. No anime versions, though.



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