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Subject: Map connections question rss

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Rex Moore
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In the Pyramid Arcade version, the rules say the map is:

“...neatly divided into six nation- states, each filling up their continent, with everyone perfectly connected to every other nation-state in equal and completely balanced ways.”

Are there supposed to be an equal number of external connections for each territory? Because it doesn’t look like it. (Not that I’d even want there to be… it seems like more fun if there are variations.)

Also, has anyone noticed any rule changes from previous versions?
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Andrew Looney
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Well damn. Congratulations, you've found a mistake. Two, actually.

It would seem I didn't check the new cartographer's work closely enough. Looking at it again now in comparison to my original board, I see that 2 sea-route connections were accidentally omitted... there should have been a connection between southern United States and Western Africa, and between Southern Africa and Western Australia.

I am deeply disappointed by this error.
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Rex Moore
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wow

Dammit Andy, I'm just so happy you brought us this great product that I don't even care. (Well, maybe just a tiny bit.)
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Michael Stone
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How many connection should each territory have? I'm looking at the Western United States . . . It only has four. If we add a connection from Southern United States to Africa, it will have six connections, I'm guessing the "C" line from SE Australia should have ended up in Western USA?
 
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Michael Stone
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And Western Europe has six connections, the one from Southern Central Continental USA to Western Europe, that is the one that should have gone to Western Africa?
 
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Michael Stone
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MStone wrote:
I'm guessing the "C" line from SE Australia should have ended up in Western USA?


Looking over all the images here on the WW5 listing on BGG, this seems to be a long standing layout . . . uh, "issue"?
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emperor wrote:
Well damn. Congratulations, you've found a mistake. Two, actually.

It would seem I didn't check the new cartographer's work closely enough. Looking at it again now in comparison to my original board, I see that 2 sea-route connections were accidentally omitted... there should have been a connection between southern United States and Western Africa, and between Southern Africa and Western Australia.

I am deeply disappointed by this error.


Looking forward to receiving the corrected replacement board.
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Chad Smith
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Springheeledjack wrote:
Looking forward to receiving the corrected replacement board.


Ooooooh.... Corrected board can have something *different* on the back. BONUS GAME BOARD!!!! surprisedevilwhistleninja
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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MStone wrote:
How many connection should each territory have? I'm looking at the Western United States . . . It only has four. If we add a connection from Southern United States to Africa, it will have six connections, I'm guessing the "C" line from SE Australia should have ended up in Western USA?

I have the original map from 2008 in front of me. There is a slight imbalance in the board. Every territory connects to 5 other territories (2 internal and 3 external), except two. Western North America only has 4 connections, and Western Europe has 6.
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Michael Stone
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How about Southern United States? I'm counting six there as well. Two "internal", but the connection through Central America to South America also counts as internal - meaning contiguous. And three "nautical" connections, Europe, Australia, and Africa.

I'm wondering if we're looking at the same version.
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Jeff Wolfe
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In the process of verifying that MStone is correct about southern North America, I found another difference between the original World War 5 map and the one included in Pyramid Arcade. In the original map, Northeastern Europe does not connect to Southwestern Asia.
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Rex Moore
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A lot to think about here!

Soooo…. let’s ponder this from a design standpoint. (And hopefully Andy will chime in.)

For the Pyramid Arcade WW5 map, we have the following external connections (with Andy’s corrections in parentheses):

North America - 8 (9)
NE 3
NW 2
S 3 (4)

South America - 9
NE 3
NW 3
S 3

Europe - 10
NE 3
NW 4
S 3

Africa - 7 (9)
NE 3
NW 2 (3)
S 2 (3)

Asia - 9
N 2
SE 3
SW 4

Australia - 8 (9)
N 3
SE 3
SW 2 (3)

-----

Andy: Did I get your corrections right, meaning you didn’t intend for every continent/territory to have equal connections?

Everyone: What are the advantages/disadvantages of fewer vs. more connections for a territory? For a continent? Do unequal connections provide more interest and strategy (as long as the balance remains)?
 
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Michael Stone
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jeffwolfe wrote:
In the original map, Northeastern Europe does not connect to Southwestern Asia.


I think that connection on the Arcade map is good thing, it makes North Eastern Europe have five connections, which it looks like is the goal.
 
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Lee Valentine
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I also want to know about NE Europe connections. It was redrawn differently from the 2008 mounted map. In the 2008 map, Europe had one fewer connection.

The rules here said there should be nine connections for each continent:
http://wunderland.com/WTS/Andy/Games/WW5/rules.html.

Lee
 
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Michael Stone
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Ah, good! So the goal isn't five connections per individual space, but nine per continent. That makes things easier. The solution I was headed for had no Pacific shipping out of the Southern United states, which in terms of game play might have worked, but thematically would have been a little weird.

 
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Lee Valentine
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jeffwolfe wrote:
MStone wrote:
How many connection should each territory have? I'm looking at the Western United States . . . It only has four. If we add a connection from Southern United States to Africa, it will have six connections, I'm guessing the "C" line from SE Australia should have ended up in Western USA?

I have the original map from 2008 in front of me. There is a slight imbalance in the board. Every territory connects to 5 other territories (2 internal and 3 external), except two. Western North America only has 4 connections, and Western Europe has 6.


In the original mounted map there were multiple, offsetting imbalances:

http://wunderland.com/WTS/Andy/Games/WW5/rules.html.

"Q: All the board spaces for World War 5 connect to exactly 5 other spaces with the exception of "USA" and "Western Europe," which each connect to six; and "Alaska" and "Scandinavia," which each connect to four. Now, to make the board perfectly balanced, the only thing that would have to be done is remove the connection between USA and Western Europe and add a connection between Alaska and Scandinavia. Was there a design reason behind this single imbalance?

A: Drawing that connection would have required a difficult-to-squeeze-on polar route, and after plenty of playtesting, Andy came to the conclusion that this tiny imbalance doesn't really matter. The key thing is the equal number of international connections, which is nine for all six continents. The fact that two of the continents have a bottleneck is compensated for by the matching floodgate, so that it makes no real difference."
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Chad Smith
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So... I'm confused. Is the map from the Pyramid Arcade a mistake, or not?

The history lesson and discussions about the varied reasonings throughout the past iterations is fun and all, I just want to know if the map I currently own is playable as-is, needs to be replaced, or needs to be fixed.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
(I've never played WW5 before.)
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Playable as-is? Yes.
Could use fixing? Yes.

As Andy says, "there should have been a connection between southern United States and Western Africa, and between Southern Africa and Western Australia."

So we could draw them on, figure out some craft-y label fix, or just play knowing that the board is unbalanced.

There's enough luck in the game that I'm not going to worry too much about it . . .
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Rex Moore
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We played three games yesterday with the map as-is. I must admit there were a couple of times that I -- as North America -- would have liked the connection to Western Africa.

I tried to get this discussion going earlier in the thread... perhaps we should start a new one in the strategy section. But:

--You could keep the map as-is and use the less-connected places strategically to rush into and hide, for example, relatively shielded from attack. This could be considered a "feature" instead of a "bug."

--You could make Andy's corrections. But as I pointed out in the long post above, that still doesn't make each territory have the same number of connections. Andy didn't answer whether having equal connections was his true intention or not.

In short, I don't know what playtesting showed was the best experience: a certain degree of asymmetry or completely equal connections.
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Lee Valentine
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orangeblood wrote:


--You could make Andy's corrections. But as I pointed out in the long post above, that still doesn't make each territory have the same number of connections. Andy didn't answer whether having equal connections was his true intention or not.

In short, I don't know what playtesting showed was the best experience: a certain degree of asymmetry or completely equal connections.


Unless he changed since the 2008 edition, I have already posted the answers he gave then. He wanted equal total connections per continent (nine) but with a couple of the continents having one fewer or one more connection on certain spaces than normal.

Lee
 
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Rex Moore
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hudarklord wrote:
Unless he changed since the 2008 edition, I have already posted the answers he gave then. He wanted equal total connections per continent (nine) but with a couple of the continents having one fewer or one more connections on certain spaces than normal.


This is where the confusion is for me. In this thread Andy seemed to indicate only two corrections were needed. As you can see in my breakout of the continents above, with the corrections Europe has 10 external connections to every other continent's 9.

I'm sure he'll come back with a clarification.

[Thinking]... perhaps it's not possible for all to have nine. You take away one from Europe and you reduce another one to eight.

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orangeblood wrote:
hudarklord wrote:
Unless he changed since the 2008 edition, I have already posted the answers he gave then. He wanted equal total connections per continent (nine) but with a couple of the continents having one fewer or one more connections on certain spaces than normal.


This is where the confusion is for me. In this thread Andy seemed to indicate only two corrections were needed. As you can see in my breakout of the continents above, with the corrections Europe has 10 external connections to every other continent's 9.

I'm sure he'll come back with a clarification.

[Thinking]... perhaps it's not possible for all to have nine. You take away one from Europe and you reduce another one to eight.


You got your calculations wrong for Asia.
In the Pyramid Arcade version it is:

Asia - 10 (9)
N: 3
SE: 3
SW: 4 (3)

The sum of all external connections across all continents has to be an even number.
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Jeff Wolfe
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The Player of Games wrote:
orangeblood wrote:
hudarklord wrote:
Unless he changed since the 2008 edition, I have already posted the answers he gave then. He wanted equal total connections per continent (nine) but with a couple of the continents having one fewer or one more connections on certain spaces than normal.


This is where the confusion is for me. In this thread Andy seemed to indicate only two corrections were needed. As you can see in my breakout of the continents above, with the corrections Europe has 10 external connections to every other continent's 9.

I'm sure he'll come back with a clarification.

[Thinking]... perhaps it's not possible for all to have nine. You take away one from Europe and you reduce another one to eight.


You got your calculations wrong for Asia.
In the Pyramid Arcade version it is:

Asia - 10 (9)
N: 3
SE: 3
SW: 4 (3)

The sum of all external connections across all continents has to be an even number.

Those extra connections come from another error, which Andy missed: Northeastern Europe should not connect to Southwestern Asia.
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And Europe should then be:

Europe - 10 (9)
NE 3 (2)
NW 4
S 3
 
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