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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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Edit Experiment over.

Thanks for playing

------------

Lots of words. Lots of insults. And a crap ton of opinions.

I have a question. DO NOT REPLY ON THIS THREAD. Use geekmail.

This is another one of my bright ideas that may go down in flames.

The question: what issues did Hillary have that were important to you, or that you identified with her? Or even, what issues did she have that weren't important?

Specific issues. Not: make govt work, make America great again, but specific issues that resonated with you. I hesitate to list any for fear of spoiling the pool.

I think if a discussion gets going on this thread that people will tend to say, oh yeah she did say that, I liked that, BUT it was never really something you gave much thought to.

My hypothesis is that she had few issues apart from: I'm liberal, I've been in govt, I was born with a vagina, he's mean.

I'm thinking issues killed her.

Sanders, for example, had issues and nothing else, to include money, and would have won in an honest primary.

Geekmail them to me and I will repost after I get a few. Let us see what Her issues were as rsp sees it, without contaminating the pool of respondents.

Don't list 600 things that are important to you and you think Clinton was more likely to address them. List a couple things that you felt were actually issues in the campaign that caused people to vote one way or the other.

GEEKMAIL THEM TO ME. I can either post your issues directly with your name attached or without.

I'm braced for failure. Let's give it a try.
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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No takers.

Oh well. It's still on the front page.

Give it a while.
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Robert Wesley
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There's been "ongoing" THAT: Conceptualated What M-O-R-E were 'required'?!?!?
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Patrick C.
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Your question seems to be addressed to people who actually liked Hillary. It seems inherent in your question.

I didn't like Hillary. And no, didn't trust her a whole lot either. However, I'd also say that about most/all politicians including Bernie.

I'm confident that I represent a ton of Americans who voted for her: It was never about voting for her. It was very much about stopping Trump. So I can't really answer your question at all. But I could tell you very specifically why I think Trump is a threat to national and world safety and why whatever Hillary did wrong (e.g email fiasco) is minor by comparison.
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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2 emails.

Well maybe it'll work.
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Oliver Dienz
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I actually agree with a lot more of Clinton's policy proposals than Trump's but this election was never about policy issues, was it?
 
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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odie73 wrote:
I actually agree with a lot more of Clinton's policy proposals than Trump's but this election was never about policy issues, was it?


I'll ask Sanders.
 
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Oliver Dienz
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Koldfoot wrote:
odie73 wrote:
I actually agree with a lot more of Clinton's policy proposals than Trump's but this election was never about policy issues, was it?


I'll ask Sanders.

Exactly. He did not lose the primary because of the issues...
 
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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Whoa!

4 respondents. Maybe 10 issues listed.

We got 1 match. And it was completely out in left field.

Valid issue, too.
 
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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Quote:
However, global trade has been a tremendous boon to US economic growth. Clinton is far more likely to attempt incremental modification to current and future trade agreements. The biggest problems with trade liberalization have been the surrendering of too much power to the WTO court and the failure of the US economy to direct some of the gains in the form of earned wages, education and worker retraining to take advantage of the newer economy.


Clinton was more likely to support maintaining or updating regulatory oversight of the banking/finance sector. Deregulation led unerringly to the 2007 collapse and it needs to be kept in place.

The biggest issue in which I would support Clinton would be replacing Scalia on the Supreme Court (which should have been done already). Clinton, as limited by the GOP, is more likely to put up a moderate justice.


Quote:
#1 issue has and will be climate change. It is the biggest issue facing us as a nation and as a planet, and it got very little attention. Though their positions were clear - Hillary supports current plans to curb human-caused climate change, and Trump believes that it's a hoax.



Quote:
1. Fix the ACA or at least do not get rid of it
2. Rational balance between taxes and spending
2a. Increase taxes on the wealthy
3. Free community college (forced on her by Sanders)
4. SCOTUS (although not a huge deal for me)



Quote:
I voted for Clinton for one reason only, and that was the prospect of Supreme Court nominations. I'd like to see the court move more to the left because on social issues,


Global trade

Tough Bank regulations

Supreme Court x3 (the reason it was left field was because 2 came from cons who want a liberal court. What?)

Climate change

Preserve ACA

Taxes/spending

College


Now. Think Trump issues. Imagration would be on everyone's list. He talked about it, he owned it, he was identified with it.

Sanders. Free college/student loan payment. That would be on everyone's list. He harped on it, he owned that issue.

Is Hillary really identified with an issue she is passionate about? Supreme Court appointment? She never harped on it. As something that had to be done, it was an issue for every candidate. You can't really say she owned it.


I think she had no defining issue. I think this small sample supports that.

I support this issue and her credentials as a lib, and not much else, gives me hope she will be better than her opponents, not because of any passion she has.

I think it hurt her bad.

I say again: Sanders had issues and not much else. He would have won in a fair primary.

Thoughts?
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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Thanks for playing.

A bigger sample would have been nice.
 
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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But then again, maybe people couldn't come up with an issue.
 
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Clearly people didn't know what HRC stood for, I agree with that for sure. Most of her campaign was based on her being the first female president, apparently none of the respondents cared about that. Also of course, that she wasn't Trump.

There is no way Hillary would have maintained regulations on banks, she spent 6 years as a senator from new york collected bribes from them, then she collected millions of dollars in speaking fees. She was in their debt and she woudl have done whatever they wanted.
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Koldfoot wrote:
Now. Think Trump issues. Imagration would be on everyone's list. He talked about it, he owned it, he was identified with it.

Sanders. Free college/student loan payment. That would be on everyone's list. He harped on it, he owned that issue.

Is Hillary really identified with an issue she is passionate about? Supreme Court appointment? She never harped on it. As something that had to be done, it was an issue for every candidate. You can't really say she owned it.


I think she had no defining issue. I think this small sample supports that.

I support this issue and her credentials as a lib, and not much else, gives me hope she will be better than her opponents, not because of any passion she has.

I think it hurt her bad.

I say again: Sanders had issues and not much else. He would have won in a fair primary.

Thoughts?

Agree with the bulk of that.
 
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Walking on eggshells is not my style
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To " someone" go ahead and add it to the thread. I'll put a note on the op that it's over.
 
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It was the reason Clinton lost -- as I've posted a couple other places. Her campaign was uninspired. She didn't show her voter base how to dream big about America. The voters aren't stupid. They know that you can't actually accomplish your pie-in-the-sky goals, but they need to see where you are at, where your eyes are fixed.

Trump wants to keep brown people out of America by building a wall -- probably his only concrete proposal and one that will never happen. But it captured the imagination of his voters.

Bernie wanted free college for everyone -- probably would never happen. But it captured the imagination of his voters.

Hillary didn't dream big. She was practical. Which would have made her a good President, but a crappy campaigner.

Her ideas didn't get her voter base dreaming about their idea of America; they were flat, well rehearsed ideas, carried by a candidate that had been villainized by the right-wing pundits for 2 years.

So, on election day there wasn't a huge ground swell of support for Trump. There was a lackluster response from Democrats. Trump couldn't even muster the number of votes that McCain received, for Christ-sakes. But more Dems stayed home, and that is why she lost. She lost because she wasn't exciting. People weren't excited to vote for her vision of America. Her vision of America was practical, but it was boring.

2008 - 69M Dem voters; 60M Rep voters.

2012 - 65M Dem voters; 60M Rep voters.

2016 - 60M Dem voters; 60M Rep voters. (Dems win more votes. Again.)

Do you see the above numbers? Dems didn't vote. Neither did Republicans. This electioon is fairly a case of the Dems staying home because they thought they had it in the bag. And they had an unfortunately uninspiring candidate without any big ideas about where America should be headed (or if she had such ideas, they weren't adequately communicated to the base to get us excited).

Bernie had big ideas, Trump had (horrible yet also) big ideas, so did 2008 and 2012 Obama. Elections are about getting out the vote. Give your voters something to dream for even if they rationally know that you won't acheive those ideas, it gives them a sort of compass to where you will lead them.

Hillary just wasn't inspiring enough; she needed more idealism.
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Patrick C.
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Quote:
Hillary just wasn't inspiring enough; she needed more idealism.


This is very likely true and it says quite a bit about the intellectual and emotional intelligence of the electorate.

The local dog catcher should have won against him because Americans would rather go with someone they know to be sane than vote for an unstable narcissist.

To someone who didn't vote for Hillary, but against Trump because of Trump's behavior and statements, it makes me fear my fellow citizens. I do not know you, I do not trust you, I do not like you. And I will fight you if necessary. Not because I like, love or approve of Hillary Clinton, but because Donald Trump is a threat to our very existence. And it should have been fucking obvious to anyone with intellectual or emotional intelligence.
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travvller wrote:
....To someone who didn't vote for Hillary, but against Trump because of Trump's behavior and statements, it makes me fear my fellow citizens. I do not know you, I do not trust you, I do not like you. And I will fight you if necessary. Not because I like, love or approve of Hillary Clinton, but because Donald Trump is a threat to our very existence. And it should have been fucking obvious to anyone with intellectual or emotional intelligence.


Lol. If by "threat to our very existence" you mean the existence of people with ideologically driven blind spots then perhaps you are right. And that would be a good thing. But unfortunately it doesn't look like it's having much affect. At least not in your case.
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Patrick C.
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deadkenny wrote:
travvller wrote:
....To someone who didn't vote for Hillary, but against Trump because of Trump's behavior and statements, it makes me fear my fellow citizens. I do not know you, I do not trust you, I do not like you. And I will fight you if necessary. Not because I like, love or approve of Hillary Clinton, but because Donald Trump is a threat to our very existence. And it should have been fucking obvious to anyone with intellectual or emotional intelligence.


Lol. If by "threat to our very existence" you mean the existence of people with ideologically driven blind spots then perhaps you are right. And that would be a good thing. But unfortunately it doesn't look like it's having much affect. At least not in your case.


Your post is a case in point of lack of intellectual and emotional intelligence.

I am capable of splitting my personal ideology from my analysis. You are clearly not.

For example, I would not vote for a Republican, but I can look at a Republican's ability to govern and discern whether or not that person is capable. Mitt Romney is/was capable. John McCain is/was capable. What I think of them ideologically has ZERO to do with what I think of them being fit to be president.

Since the beginning of the Cold War no president, and absolutely never a Republican, ever admired a Russian leader for being a dictator. No president, and absolutely never a Republican, ever dismissed the importance of NATO.

I am not a hawk. As an adult I have opposed the majority of military actions taken by the US. That includes Iraq. I served in Army Intelligence before Gulf War I and I read the official and classified threat analysis papers on countries who oppose the US. Iraq wasn't even in the top ten. Saddam was a two bit dictator with limited means. I spoke out when Bush Sr., Clinton and Bush Jr. made comparisons to Hitler. I participated in many protests against war with Iraq.

Putin is another animal. He IS a threat to western democracies. He has the military capability. He has the blind allegiance of most of his people. He has the proven track record of destroying anyone who opposes him. If you want to disagree with me prove me wrong on my analysis of Putin. For you to disagree with me you must be arguing that eastern European nations have nothing to fear from Putin.

You cannot smear me with your ideological label. My analysis of Putin and how the US should behave toward them is in conflict with my ideology - someone who opposes war. For you to suggest otherwise merely indicates to me that you are ideologically driven in your attacks. The same kind of person who put Trump into office.
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travvller wrote:
Your post is a case in point of lack of intellectual and emotional intelligence......


So your comeback is "I know you are but what am I"? As for the rest of your "analysis", the same ideological basis that caused you to claim "threat to our very existence". So I guess if the US ceases to exist in the next four year, you will have been proven right.
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deadkenny wrote:
travvller wrote:
Your post is a case in point of lack of intellectual and emotional intelligence......


So your comeback is "I know you are but what am I"? As for the rest of your "analysis", the same ideological basis that caused you to claim "threat to our very existence". So I guess if the US ceases to exist in the next four year, you will have been proven right.



You smeared me with the ideological label with no proof. Because I have a different view that view must obviously be based on ideology. I'm saying it's not and explained why.

I am arguing that Putin is a threat to western democracies and must be confronted. This pov is exactly what Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush H and Bush W would argue.

How the hell can I be ideologically driven to support positions by politicians I opposed, politicians I voted against (not all of them, I'm not that old) while at the same time being an ideologically blinded liberal?

No other major GOP candidate for president supported Putin except Trump. I challenge you to find ANY GOP member of the House or Senate who views Putin like Trump does.

Trump is an extremist within in his own party, forget what Democrats think about him.

50 GOP foreign policy and national security experts signed a letter before the election. They wrote:

"We are convinced that in the Oval Office, he would be the most reckless President in American history."

And you accuse me of being ideological? Because you have so far refused to respond to any of my comments about Russia or Putin - then yes, you are being ideological. And you are responding like a child.
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He may be more responsive to you if you attempted to be more honest with him, Patrick. Pretending to care this much about Russia, and even pretending to be a former IA, while claiming that you would vote for someone who willingly violated their government clearance is logical discordance and comes off as dishonest.
 
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