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Subject: Closing In - A Sid Sackson game from 1979 rss

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Rey Alicea
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Closing In by Sid Sackson was published by Games Magazine in 1979. The game pre-dates The Game of Amazons by 9 years!

Amazons was published in 1988.

Closing In is played on a 6x6 using pencil and paper and the queens move and firing of arrows are revered, that's it.

Other than the extra queens, larger board and initial setup the games are identical.

CLOSING IN isn't in the database.

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Herb
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So add the game...
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Russ Williams
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Cool find. FWIW having the square you just left become blocked (instead of firing a block to a place of your choice after moving, as in Amazons) makes it similar to Hey, That's My Fish!.
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Maurizio De Leo
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In all my reverence for Sid Sackson I would say that Amazons still has a good degree of originality.

This "Closing In" seems more like a predecessor of SnailTrail.
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Stephen Tavener
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megamau wrote:
In all my reverence for Sid Sackson I would say that Amazons still has a good degree of originality.

This "Closing In" seems more like a predecessor of SnailTrail.

Agreed; the emergent territorial nature of the game is there, but being able to choose where the block goes causes the game to play very differently. See also Pferdeäppel, Isolation, Foxy, and http://www.gamerz.net/pbmserv/survival.html
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Rey Alicea
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megamau wrote:
In all my reverence for Sid Sackson I would say that Amazons still has a good degree of originality.

This "Closing In" seems more like a predecessor of SnailTrail.


I have to disagree with you and Stephen, the other games you've mentioned lack one important trait that Closing In and Amazons have in common, The Queens Move

All the other games mentioned use the Kings move



*** Edit *** - Except for the game of Survival 1995 which in my opinion is a derivative of Amazons which is a derivative of Closing In.
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Rey Alicea
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Even my game Obelisk using a single queen is a derivative of Closing In.
 
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Maurizio De Leo
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reyalicea wrote:
I have to disagree with you and Stephen, the other games you've mentioned lack one important trait that Closing In and Amazons have in common, The Queens Move

All the other games mentioned use the Kings move
*** Edit *** - Except for the game of Survival 1995 which in my opinion is a derivative of Amazons which is a derivative of Closing In.

Depends how much weight you put in the "innovation" of movement type (limited, unlimited,orthogonal,hexagonal) and how much on the idea of "throwing an arrow" (i.e. blocking a different space than the one just visited).
Given that all our examples lack the second concept, I find Amazons more innovative.

Just a minor remark. In Pferdeäppel (excellent example by Stephen) the pieces us the Knight move.
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Russ Williams
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megamau wrote:
Just a minor remark. In Pferdeäppel (excellent example by Stephen) the pieces us the Knight move.

Which in turn reminds me of Folko-Boks from 2007, in which each player makes knight's moves until they can no longer move. And (coming full circle) its author credits an earlier Sid Sackson game (apparently Paper Boxing from 1969) for inspiring it.
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Rey Alicea
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russ wrote:
megamau wrote:
Just a minor remark. In Pferdeäppel (excellent example by Stephen) the pieces us the Knight move.

Which in turn reminds me of Folko-Boks from 2007, in which each player makes knight's moves until they can no longer move. And (coming full circle) its author credits an earlier Sid Sackson game (apparently Paper Boxing from 1969) for inspiring it.



This is the point I was trying to make which got lost in translation. Sid Sackson should get credit for comming up with the original, all others even if they are better or worse are derivatives.
 
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Stephen Tavener
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reyalicea wrote:
I have to disagree with you and Stephen, the other games you've mentioned lack one important trait that Closing In and Amazons have in common, The Queens Move

Foxy (1977) has queen moves
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Rey Alicea
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mrraow wrote:
reyalicea wrote:
I have to disagree with you and Stephen, the other games you've mentioned lack one important trait that Closing In and Amazons have in common, The Queens Move

Foxy (1977) has queen moves


Ok, you got me there, but it resembles Snail Trail more than it does Amazons.
 
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reyalicea wrote:
russ wrote:
megamau wrote:
Just a minor remark. In Pferdeäppel (excellent example by Stephen) the pieces us the Knight move.

Which in turn reminds me of Folko-Boks from 2007, in which each player makes knight's moves until they can no longer move. And (coming full circle) its author credits an earlier Sid Sackson game (apparently Paper Boxing from 1969) for inspiring it.



This is the point I was trying to make which got lost in translation. Sid Sackson should get credit for comming up with the original, all others even if they are better or worse are derivatives.

Small philosophical point. Is a game, then, a "derivative" even if its author was unaware of the "original" - or is awareness automatically presumed.

I note that Hex appears to be a unique case in that I've never heard the 'two independent inventors' line questioned, even though one must have preceded the other.
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Rey Alicea
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mocko wrote:
reyalicea wrote:
russ wrote:
megamau wrote:
Just a minor remark. In Pferdeäppel (excellent example by Stephen) the pieces us the Knight move.

Which in turn reminds me of Folko-Boks from 2007, in which each player makes knight's moves until they can no longer move. And (coming full circle) its author credits an earlier Sid Sackson game (apparently Paper Boxing from 1969) for inspiring it.



This is the point I was trying to make which got lost in translation. Sid Sackson should get credit for comming up with the original, all others even if they are better or worse are derivatives.

Small philosophical point. Is a game, then, a "derivative" even if its author was unaware of the "original" - or is awareness automatically presumed.

I note that Hex appears to be a unique case in that I've never heard the 'two independent inventors' line questioned, even though one must have preceded the other.



Good point.

I think that if a designer unknowingly re-invents a game it is not a derivative.

A derivative is when a designer knows the other game exists.

Yet credit for originality should be given to the inventor who was first.

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