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Pyramid Arcade» Forums » General

Subject: Volcano vs Caldera: a BGG database question rss

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Ryan Hackel
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In the Pyramid Arcade, Looney Labs officially attaches the name Volcano to the Caldera rules.

Caldera had been created as a separately named variant of Volcano, but now they are one and the same.

I think the BGG entries for Volcano and Caldera should be merged.
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Avri
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Great minds . . .

I sent through a correction to the Caldera page yesterday asking an admin to combine the entries given that the publishers now consider them variants of one game.
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Jeff Wolfe
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I disagree. Just because they changed the name doesn't magically make them the same game. They are distinct and people routinely express a preference for one or the other.

For a recent example, look at

Dominion
Dominion (second edition)

They have the same name and are basically the same game, but they have significant differences that warrant different entries in the database.

Caldera should be called Volcano now, but that doesn't mean we should eliminate the ability for people to distinguish between them.
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Mike Fogus
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Am I wrong in thinking that Volcano, Caldera, and Spicy Caldera are three distinct games? They seem to be in play.
 
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Avri
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So should we also add "Fiesta Caldera" as a distinct game in the database? And what should I do if I play 5 color Volcano with the Caldera win condition / and or powerplay rule?

They are inarguable variants of the same game.

As for Dominion (and War of the Ring, and all the other places where a second or special edition has been given a separate entry) I think these are a mistake too, creating more noise than signal. My understanding was Versions was supposed to take care of most of these cases, but Versions were not well received by the community . . .

[In rereading my post, I am aware it can be read with snark and aggression aplenty. Please know it is not meant that way.]
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Richard Sampson
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jeffwolfe wrote:
I disagree. Just because they changed the name doesn't magically make them the same game. They are distinct and people routinely express a preference for one or the other.

For a recent example, look at

Dominion
Dominion (second edition)

They have the same name and are basically the same game, but they have significant differences that warrant different entries in the database.

Caldera should be called Volcano now, but that doesn't mean we should eliminate the ability for people to distinguish between them.
But in that example the contents have been significantly changed. The case here is mostly minor rule tweaks between each version. A better example is Myth which has a single entry despite a major rule overhaul.

I am pro single entry as long as the entry makes distinction between 1.0, 2.0 (Caldera), and 3.0 (Fiesta Caldera).
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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There are a gazillion Volcano variants, and at this point, I think it's fair to include the few Caldera games among them. There has never been a published "kit" with a full set of materials expressly for Caldera or Volcano,* so there's no "edition" of either as such.

*I would even exclude Pyramid Arcade, since it has so much content that's not for the "Caldera/Volcano" game that it supplies.
 
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Richard Sampson
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Carthoris wrote:
There are a gazillion Volcano variants, and at this point, I think it's fair to include the few Caldera games among them. There has never been a published "kit" with a full set of materials expressly for Caldera or Volcano,* so there's no "edition" of either as such.

*I would even exclude Pyramid Arcade, since it has so much content that's not for the "Caldera/Volcano" game that it supplies.
There may be several variants, but there are 3 very specific rule sets that have been officially released and most consider the core game(s).

1.0 Volcano is featured in Playing With Pyramids.

2.0 Caldera is featured in Full Pocket Guide (www.looneylabs.com/sites/default/files/rules/FullPocketGuide...)

3.0 Fiesta Caldera which is featured in Pyramid Arcade.

The Arcade rulebook even specifically addresses its rules as the 3.0 version. Because of these distinctions as official versions of the rule set, I think most would probably prefer all represented in some way. As fogus points out, they do all feel a bit different.

That being said, I do feel they are variations of a single game and don't need separate pages.
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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I'd be interested in Kristin Looney's opinion on this question.
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Richard Sampson
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Carthoris wrote:
I'd be interested in Kristin Looney's opinion on this question.
Considering the official name change to the original Volcano, don't you think we have the answer?
 
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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ras2124 wrote:
Carthoris wrote:
I'd be interested in Kristin Looney's opinion on this question.
Considering the official name change to the original Volcano, don't you think we have the answer?

Well, I know how I interpret that, but ultimate clarity would come from an answer to the question: "Do you think Volcano and Caldera should share the same database entry on BoardGameGeek?"
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Jeff Wolfe
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It's all Volcano now, so calling the original Volcano is confusing. I'm going to use the term some have adopted, Classic Volcano, for clarity.

There are three or four major differences between Classic Volcano and Caldera, depending on how you count.

1a. Object of the Game - In Caldera, you win by collecting three monochrome trees. In Classic Volcano, you win based on collecting points.
1b. Ending the game - In Caldera, the game ends when somebody wins. In Classic Volcano, the game ends when someone collects all the colors. The person who ends a Classic Volcano game may lose, or the game may end in a tie.
2. The Caldera - The center square in Caldera is empty, giving it its name. Classic Volcano doesn't have an empty square. Because of that, the standard opening move in Classic Volcano is impossible in Caldera.
3. The Power Play Option - You can back-port the Power Play Option to Classic Volcano, but you don't really need it. On the other hand, it's integral to Caldera and pushes the game to completion.

By comparison, the other variants are mostly just minor tweaks.
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Ryan Hackel
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Mahjong has countless regional scoring variants, but most can be played with a subset of the standard pieces. Thus BGG has been content to aggregate most mahjong content onto one entry. Two notable exceptions, Riichi and American, have separate entries. Another example is how the Mancala family is treated.
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Russ Williams
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cerulean wrote:
Mahjong has countless regional scoring variants, but most can be played with a subset of the standard pieces. Thus BGG has been content to aggregate most mahjong content onto one entry. Two notable exceptions, Riichi and American, have separate entries. Another example is how the Mancala family is treated.

To be clear, you mean that the many various games in the Mancala family are treated as separate games in the BGG database, right? (Apparently in contrast to many games in the Mahjong family.) I.e. there are precedents for both approaches in the BGG database.
 
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