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Subject: War game criteria rss

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Ken Shin
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[I posted this in the wargame thread, but I'm hoping to get more responses here. Sorry about the double post though.]

I am still on the hunt for my first war-themed game.

So I am looking for something that:

1. Is historically accurate. I want to learn about the history behind the game.
2. Uses the Fog-of-War very effectively. I keep reading about this and think it's one of the coolest features of wargames.
3. Plays fast. I don't mind if it takes 3 days to finish, but as long as the other players are engaged.
4. No elimination. I don't want to know the winner 1 hour into a 20 hour game.
5. Not scripted. Allows you to "change" history if that's what it takes to beat your opponent.
6. Overlord option like in Memoir 44.
7. FUN! But of course, that's obvious.

Thanks!
 
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Dan Poole
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- The most important question would be what war is of most interest.
- The next question would be the level of the game (strategic/global level, operational level or tactical level).

As far as fog of war goes, that narrows things down considerably, since most wargames are open. The block games definitely have the fog of war aspect down. 3 recommendations just off the top of my head are Hammer of the Scots (light). Rommel in the Desert (Medium) and EastFront (heavier). All of these are Operational level. A tactical level recommendation would be Boneparte at Marengo whereas a Global/strategic game to look into is Europe Engulfed (though I have never played this monster).

Some personal recommendations are Paths of Glory, Shifting Sands, Combat Commander, Twlilight Struggle, ASL SK. These have less of a Fog-of-war aspect but are all great games.

Oh yes, don't forget to check out Tides of Iron, which has just been released.

Enjoy!!!!!
 
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Bonaparte at Marengo, or Columbia Games Napoleon would both be a good next step.
 
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suPUR DUEper
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Hmmm....

A few random thoughts.

#1 and #5 often have a hard time co-existing. That is, a historically accurate simulation may tend to constrain the freedoms bestowed upon a player to keep the simulation from devolving into a flight of fantasy. For example, in a game on Antietam, the design may have rules which keep the Union player from hurling the entire army at the Confederates. Historically accurate? Yes. Not scripted? No.

#6 is kind of a curve ball. Many wargamers would not consider Memoir a wargame. So, I guess the question is, are you looking for a war themed game or a wargame?

#2 As the previous poster mentioned, most wargames are pretty open so fog of war is limited. East Front is my favorite of that genre. You may want to consider a card driven game. While the units are in full viwe, the cards are hidden which gives some fog of war appeal.

If you choose this path, try (in this order): We the People, Paths of Glory, Barbarossa to Berlin, For the People.

Though these are light on fog of war, you might also want to try:
Fire in the Sky
VG Civil War

Note, these are wargames, not war themed games

You might want to try Combat Commander. That might come the closest to "all of the above" on your list.
 
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Robert Wilson
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I would try this one

http://boardgamegeek.com/game/22143


East Front II
 
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Will DeMorris
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My first reaction to your request is Eastfront II.

Due to your interest in fog of war mechanics I think block wargames will fit the bill best. Another recommendation would be Europe Engulfed.


-Will
 
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Ken Shin
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voynix wrote:
- The next question would be the level of the game (strategic/global level, operational level or tactical level).

Oh yes, don't forget to check out Tides of Iron, which has just been released.

Enjoy!!!!!
Thanks everyone for the replies. First, I didn't think about the game as categorized into strategic/global level, operational level, or tactical level.

To be honest, I don't even know the difference?

And does Tides of Iron incorporate Fog of War? (You can tell I'm hung up on this feature).
 
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Colin Hunter
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Tactical Level: You control several squads of men. For example ASL, Combat Commander Europe, many miniature games. Generally the level of detail is high, so what actual armaments your troops have make a difference. So you might control an entire company and you would probably be a captain.

Operational Level: You are a larger area commander incharge of a battle group or division. You probably order platoon or company sized formations over a larger scale. You make operational level decisions, individual armaments won't matter, but the overal specialization of a unit might make a difference. For example an Anti tank Coy or Artillery Coy. Counters will generally be more specialized than on a strategic level, but less detailed than tactical level. At this scale you could control a single battle. Many games fit into this category, any game that covers a single famouse battle will probably be an operational game.

Strategic. You control an entire front or theatre, maybe even the whole war. You are not concerned with the specific armament of your troops, but the overall effect that they deliver. You often have to deal more with political considerations aswell as military. Supply is often a crucial issue and grand strategy is the name of the game. EG Eurofront, Europe Engulfed, Axis and Allies and many more.

Hope this helps
 
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Dan Poole
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And yet another way to think about it:
1. Tactical.....battlefield level. Line of sight rules are a part of the game.
2. Operational. Played on a larger scale map. A good example is a wargame that takes place in North Africa. Supply and production become issues. These games usually focus on either land, naval or air combat.
3. Strategic....A whole war (or a big chunk of one). These games usually encompass land, air and sea operations all rolled into one game. Sort of like Europe Engulfed and Axis and Allies.
 
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Todd Pytel
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Your comments about "player elimination" imply that you're looking for a multi-player game. Is that correct? If so, it narrows your option considerably, as few wargames play more than two people and many of the ones that do are rather long and involved.
 
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Colin Hunter
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I said it in your other thread but if you want something on the simple side, with beautiful components, that has fog of war and plays up to 4 players you should check out Friedrich.
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Seth Owen
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While I'm a big fan of "fog of war" and block games, there are other techniques that allow some of the effect of fog without being explicit about it.
Memoir'44 and its siblings get a similar effect from the card play.
Many wargames have command control restrictions that may restrict how much a player can react to events, even if he can see it on the board.
MMP's Tactical Combat Series uses an interesting written orders system. Avalanche Press' naval games also use written orders.
Many naval games use double-blind (for example Midway)
 
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Ricatoni
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Many wargames out there are possible given the use of Counter Sleds. Counter sleds add the "Fog of War" to normally 100% intelligence games. Thus you would know where your opponents units are, but not their values until you get either Line of Sight, or Engage them. Counter Sleds are available through Rdoxx.com and come in a variety of sizes.

So do not write off any wargame out there because you can add fog of war to them at a very low cost.
 
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Mark Woodson
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EastFront! EastFront II has a cleaner map than can be used to combine with other fronts in a mega game but other than that there isn't much differnce. EastFront I is available for about 1/3 the cost of the newer version.
 
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Ken Shin
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tppytel wrote:
Your comments about "player elimination" imply that you're looking for a multi-player game. Is that correct? If so, it narrows your option considerably, as few wargames play more than two people and many of the ones that do are rather long and involved.
Oh...I guess I want multiple players. If I stick to that rule then what games am I left with?

Oh and I never mentioned the theme, but I love WWII.
 
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Columbia's Napoleon: The Waterloo Campaign, 1815 is a good multiplayer game with fog of war. It's for 2 or 3 players, and with 3 it's a 2-on-1 game. If you just want a fun beer and pretzels game, Nexus Ops is a good 2-4 player light wargame.
 
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marc lecours
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i am guessing that by wanting a game with an overlord option like in memoir 44 you mean a game where two team can face off against each other. I don't know of too many. But many big games could be adapted. Each player handling a section of the front. The player with the smallest section of the front would be given overall control to make the strategic decisions.

For example in Europe Engulfed, one axis player gets the east front and the other gets the rest of the map plus naval war plus building new units.
 
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Isaac Citrom
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Erik's reply about counter sleds is very apt. With them you can add the block mechanism to any counter style wargame and achieve the same effect of fog-of-war. With counter sleds your potential candidates has regrown a lot.

www.rdoxx.com

To answer your question about Tide of Iron, it does not have a fog-of-war mechanism. It is a tactical level wargame. As a long time wargamer I am very excited about Tide of Iron as I think it will be hugely fun.

I would also caution you about card-driven games like Memoir '44. I dislike them. For a lot of us, the cards telling you what you can and cannot do and where you can do it sucks a lot of the fun out of the game. Conversely, there are many (perhaps more) who especially like this aspect of these types of games. The main argument is that card-driven games incorporate fog-of-war implicitly. That is to say that the design assumes fog-of-war and automatically limits your possible actions. There have been long debates about this here on BGG. I find this argument weak in light of the completely random nature of the cards and that the fog-of-war jumps all over the battlefield like a Mexican jumping bean. And, there are other negative aspects to card-driven games. On the other hand, one of the most popular and seemingly most enjoyed games is Combat Commander: Europe which is also a card-driven game.

I notice that several people recommended EastFront II which is one of Columbia Games' WWII BlockFront series. I have this series and I much prefer Europe Engulfed which is also a WWII block style wargame. I think EE is a way better design. Comparisons of the two are also available here on BGG.

 
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Ken Shin
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I am looking into Europe Engulfed and was wondering if you have to apply the stickers onto the blocks like in C&C: Ancients.
 
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Isaac Citrom
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dvader123 wrote:
I am looking into Europe Engulfed and was wondering if you have to apply the stickers onto the blocks like in C&C: Ancients.

Yes, you do.
 
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Kurt La Botz
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Except for the FOW almost any good war game would cover your requirements. What I mean but good war game it's one you like to play not one someone else thinks is good. FOW can be possible with any game you cove your counters up with blank counters and the other side goes into another room. I just saw a company that was selling stands for counters It was on CONSIMWORLD this would make FOW for any counter Like a block game and it looked like the stands could support some stacked counters.
 
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Andrew C
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dvader123 wrote:
I am looking into Europe Engulfed and was wondering if you have to apply the stickers onto the blocks like in C&C: Ancients.

Yes, you do, but only on one side (that helps). Plus GMT stickers are pretty easy to get perfectly square because you can slide them around a bit while applying them.
 
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Ken Shin
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Cleitus the Black wrote:
dvader123 wrote:
I am looking into Europe Engulfed and was wondering if you have to apply the stickers onto the blocks like in C&C: Ancients.

Yes, you do, but only on one side (that helps). Plus GMT stickers are pretty easy to get perfectly square because you can slide them around a bit while applying them.
Oh okay. So I guess in C&C:A you have to put them on both sides?
 
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Yep, both sides for C&C. There's no fog of war.
 
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