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Subject: Upgrading level 0 cards [SOLVED] rss

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Mathias Heilmann
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When you upgrade your deck after a scenario, during a campaign and you choose to upgrade a card (removing a lower level for a higher level version of the same card) the rules state that you only pay the level difference in XP. Are there any cases where that actually makes a difference in the core game? You always start with level 0 cards and there aren't multiple instances of higher levels of the same card, are there?
I assume that this rule is there for expansions that might bring in higher levels of established cards, but I'd like to make sure that I got it right.

Example: Upgrade level 0 card to level 2 card -> cost: 2 XP - right?

EDIT Official answer form the designer:
Swiftfooted wrote:
We have an official answer here: https://twitter.com/NatsunoYoru/status/797879584129744897

Quote:
Upgrading a card from level 0 to level 2 (like "Lucky") costs 2 xp (the difference between the two).
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Michael Wester
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
I noticed the same and reread the rules a couple of times, but I believe you're right and there are no advantages to 'upgrading' vs adding new cards in the core set.
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Kelly B
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
This is essentially correct with the additional rule that it costs a minimum of 1 XP so replacing a zero level card with a different zero level card still costs.

Also, one doesn't just simply 'add'. One always replaces. whistle
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Jon Browne
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
I may be wrong, but I thought it was that you pay XP for the difference, for any card

So if, in between scenarios, I remove Lucky (lvl 2) and replace it with Shotgun (lvl 4) I only pay 2 XP.

EDIT - I'm WRONG
 
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
Heilz wrote:
When you upgrade your deck after a scenario, during a campaign and you choose to upgrade a card (removing a lower level for a higher level version of the same card) the rules state that you only pay the level difference in XP. Are there any cases where that actually makes a difference in the core game? You always start with level 0 cards and there aren't multiple instances of higher levels of the same card, are there?
I assume that this rule is there for expansions that might bring in higher levels of established cards, but I'd like to make sure that I got it right.

Example: Upgrade level 0 card to level 2 card -> cost: 2 XP - right?


Actually a level 0 card cost is 1 XP. Not sure how it is handled when upgrading.
 
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Kelly B
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
jonboyjon wrote:
I may be wrong, but I thought it was that you pay XP for the difference, for any card

So if, in between scenarios, I remove Lucky (lvl 2) and replace it with Shotgun (lvl 4) I only pay 2 XP.


From Campaign Play in the Rules Ref

Quote:
When purchasing a higher level version of a card with the same title, the investigator may choose to “upgrade” that card by paying only the difference in experience (to a minimum of 1) between the two cards and removing the lower level version of the card from his or her deck.


What you replace a card with only gets you a discount if it has the same title.
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MC Shudde M'ell
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
It's very easy to see how this will be helpful in future, of course, turning a Level 1 or Level 2 Card into a Level 4 or 5 version of that same Card in the middle of a campaign. I appreciate them spelling it out up front.
 
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Benjamin Schoenheiter
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
We played it at cost 1 - so upgrading a lvl 0 to a lvl 2 costs 1xp not two.
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Kelly B
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
benji_online wrote:
We played it at cost 1 - so upgrading a lvl 0 to a lvl 2 costs 1xp not two.


I wanted to argue with this but can find no explicit rule denying that this would be the case. In fact the rules say 'difference in Experience' not difference in level. And playing it this way means there is some benefit to upgrading a card rather than just buying it outright.
 
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Benjamin Schoenheiter
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
happycatmachine wrote:
benji_online wrote:
We played it at cost 1 - so upgrading a lvl 0 to a lvl 2 costs 1xp not two.


I wanted to argue with this but can find no explicit rule denying that this would be the case. In fact the rules say 'difference in Experience' not difference in level. And playing it this way means there is some benefit to upgrading a card rather than just buying it outright.


I think this came up with a seeker card that has a higher level upgrade ... And it would've have made no sense to upgrade the card if it cost the same to take a "new" copy and switching the other out, instead of "upgrading" it which is the very intention of this.
 
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Pauli Vinni
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
Yes. If you upgrade for example from level 1 spell to level 4 spell the difference is 3 XP. And always the minimum is 1 so if you upgrade level 2 spell to level 0 item the difference is -2 but the minimum is still 1 so you pay 1 XP.

When you upgrade level 0 card to level 2 card it cost two XP.
Level 0 is 0 XP card. There is just minimum of 1 that you have to pay in all situations. Even when going backward when changin a card in your deck.
 
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Mathias Heilmann
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
benji_online wrote:
We played it at cost 1 - so upgrading a lvl 0 to a lvl 2 costs 1xp not two.

After rereading the chapter on Campaign play in the RR I think you're right:

RR Page 5 wrote:

- Each card costs experience equal to the card's level, to a minimum of 1 (purchasing a level zero card still costs 1 experience). The number of pips beneath a card's cost indicates the card's level.

- When purchasing a higher level version of a card with the same title, the investigator may choose to "upgrade" that card by paying only the difference in experience (to a minimum of 1) between the two cards and removing the lower level version of the card from his or her deck. (Emphasis mine)
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Ingo Griebsch
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
Heilz wrote:
benji_online wrote:
We played it at cost 1 - so upgrading a lvl 0 to a lvl 2 costs 1xp not two.

After rereading the chapter on Campaign play in the RR I think you're right:

RR Page 5 wrote:

- Each card costs experience equal to the card's level, to a minimum of 1 (purchasing a level zero card still costs 1 experience). The number of pips beneath a card's cost indicates the card's level.

- When purchasing a higher level version of a card with the same title, the investigator may choose to "upgrade" that card by paying only the difference in experience (to a minimum of 1) between the two cards and removing the lower level version of the card from his or her deck. (Emphasis mine)


Especially after reading this I think Benjamin is wrong.

For me it works like the following: You subtract the higher level value from the lower level value. If the result is 0 the result is 1.
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
d0gb0t wrote:
Heilz wrote:
benji_online wrote:
We played it at cost 1 - so upgrading a lvl 0 to a lvl 2 costs 1xp not two.

After rereading the chapter on Campaign play in the RR I think you're right:

RR Page 5 wrote:

- Each card costs experience equal to the card's level, to a minimum of 1 (purchasing a level zero card still costs 1 experience). The number of pips beneath a card's cost indicates the card's level.

- When purchasing a higher level version of a card with the same title, the investigator may choose to "upgrade" that card by paying only the difference in experience (to a minimum of 1) between the two cards and removing the lower level version of the card from his or her deck. (Emphasis mine)


Especially after reading this I think Benjamin is wrong.

For me it works like the following: You subtract the higher level value from the lower level value. If the result is 0 the result is 1.



I agree with you.

If you have a card lvl 0 and want to upgrade it to level 2, it cost 2. The cost = the difference between the little white dot on the upper left of the card.

The minimum cost of 1 is only to prevent people to re-arrange all their deck between scenario. It would be too strong.


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Benjamin Schoenheiter
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
d0gb0t wrote:
Heilz wrote:
benji_online wrote:
We played it at cost 1 - so upgrading a lvl 0 to a lvl 2 costs 1xp not two.

After rereading the chapter on Campaign play in the RR I think you're right:

RR Page 5 wrote:

- Each card costs experience equal to the card's level, to a minimum of 1 (purchasing a level zero card still costs 1 experience). The number of pips beneath a card's cost indicates the card's level.

- When purchasing a higher level version of a card with the same title, the investigator may choose to "upgrade" that card by paying only the difference in experience (to a minimum of 1) between the two cards and removing the lower level version of the card from his or her deck. (Emphasis mine)


Especially after reading this I think Benjamin is wrong.

For me it works like the following: You subtract the higher level value from the lower level value. If the result is 0 the result is 1.


It doesn't say level. It says "cost of experience".
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Scott Dockery
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
And level zero cards have an experience cost of zero. It's just that the minimum cost of any change to your decks is 1 xp, so it only comes into play when upgrading.
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Mathias Heilmann
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
rsdockery wrote:
And level zero cards have an experience cost of zero. It's just that the minimum cost of any change to your decks is 1 xp, so it only comes into play when upgrading.
That is wrong actually. Level 0 cards have a level of 0 but a experience cost of 1.
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Immortal
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
its clearly written in the rules book that level 0 cards cost 1 if you want to add a new one to your deck.


For exemple: I want to add a 2nd copy of Magnifying Glass. The card is level 0 but still cost 1 experience point




If you want to add a new card which has 1 or more white dots(these represent level), it cost as much experience as the number of white dots on it.

For example: I want a shotgun. It cost 4 experience points.




Finally, if you want to upgrade a card, you pay for the difference of white dots.

For example: Magnifying Glass level 0 -----> Magnifying Glass level 1 will cost 1 experience point.
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Mathias Heilmann
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
nightwishpower wrote:
Finally, if you want to upgrade a card, you pay for the difference of white dots.

For example: Magnifying Glass level 0 -----> Magnifying Glass level 1 will cost 1 experience point.

That might be right for this example, but you don't pay for the difference in white pips, but for the difference in experience. In your example you'd pay 2 XP when upgrading from level 0 to level 2.
 
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Patrik Severinsson
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
As I see it, level 0 cards have a 1xp cost (since costs are always a minimum of 1), but a 0xp value.
So upgrading from a lvl 0 to lvl 1 would cost 1xp.

It seems very unintentional that it would be free to upgrade from lvl 0 to lvl 1, but not from lvl2 to lvl3.
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Kevin Cioffi

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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
Heilz wrote:
nightwishpower wrote:
Finally, if you want to upgrade a card, you pay for the difference of white dots.

For example: Magnifying Glass level 0 -----> Magnifying Glass level 1 will cost 1 experience point.

That might be right for this example, but you don't pay for the difference in white pips, but for the difference in experience. In your example you'd pay 2 XP when upgrading von level 0 to level 2.


My only problem with this comes from a hypothetical situation. What if a card has level 0, level 1 and level 2 versions. You have the level 0 version in your deck. It costs the same amount to upgrade from 0 to 1 as it does from 0 to 2 (1xp in both instances). That does not seem right to me. Using the value of the pips seems the way to go.

Using the pips, it costs 1xp to upgrade from a level 0 card to a level 1 card. It costs 2xp to level from a level 0 card to a level 2 card. In both cases it's the same cost as just buying them outright. Where upgrading becomes beneficial is upgrading from level 1 to level 2 costs 1xp instead of having to pay 2xp to buy it straight up. This seems way more consistent and avoids situations like above where you can upgrade from 0 to 2 for the same cost as 0 to 1.
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
Heilz wrote:
nightwishpower wrote:
Finally, if you want to upgrade a card, you pay for the difference of white dots.

For example: Magnifying Glass level 0 -----> Magnifying Glass level 1 will cost 1 experience point.

That might be right for this example, but you don't pay for the difference in white pips, but for the difference in experience. In your example you'd pay 2 XP when upgrading von level 0 to level 2.



lol what do you mean by "the difference of experience" ? isnt it the same thing as "difference in white pips" ??

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Mathias Heilmann
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
Helikoputtrik wrote:
It seems very unintentional that it would be free to upgrade from lvl 0 to lvl 1, but not from lvl2 to lvl3.

It wouldn't be free, it would cost 1 XP, because that is the minimum cost.

captainsqually wrote:

My only problem with this comes from a hypothetical situation. What if a card has level 0, level 1 and level 2 versions. You have the level 0 version in your deck. It costs the same amount to upgrade from 0 to 1 as it does from 0 to 2 (1xp in both instances). That does not seem right to me. Using the value of the pips seems the way to go.

It seems like it, but the rules clearly (in my opinion) say otherwise (see above or below). I wouldn't mind being corrected by an official answer. If I'm right I assume that your example would never happen, because they simply wouldn't release a level 1 and level 2 version of the same card.

nightwishpower wrote:

lol what do you mean by "the difference of experience" ? isnt it the same thing as "difference in white pips" ??


No, it isn't.
RR Page 5 wrote:

- Each card costs experience equal to the card's level, to a minimum of 1 (purchasing a level zero card still costs 1 experience). The number of pips beneath a card's cost indicates the card's level.

- When purchasing a higher level version of a card with the same title, the investigator may choose to "upgrade" that card by paying only the difference in experience (to a minimum of 1) between the two cards and removing the lower level version of the card from his or her deck. (Emphasis mine)
Number of pips != experience

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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
man thats what im saying since the beginning lol.... maybe my english is just too bad and you dont understand me?
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Kelly B
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Re: Upgrading level 0 cards
nightwishpower wrote:
man thats what im saying since the beginning lol.... maybe my english is just too bad and you dont understand me?


I saw that right away as well, that is why I said that I could find no reason to argue against the idea that it would only cost one.

The argument that a 0-1 would cost the same as a 0-2 is a sound one but we can't disallow that FFG might want to issue such cards in the future.

I think we'll need a ruling from Matt on this one.
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