Stephen Jacobsen
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So I came across this today:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I'm battling the Ghoul Priest at the end of scenario 1. Our hero Roland is at wit's end with 4/5 horror. The nefarious Ghoul Priest has 1 health remaining. He shoots his .45 and misses. Ghoul Priest retaliates. Two damage and 1 horror go to his trusty guard dog and 1 horror will be going back to poor Roland.


The Guard Dog's Ability says "when an enemy attack deals damage to Guard Dog: Deal 1 damage to the attacking enemy. "

Spoiler (click to reveal)
This would be the final blow to the Ghoul Priest, but it would also be the final blow for Roland.


Rules Reference, p.3 Triggered Abilities: 4th paragraph wrote:
A [Reaction] ability with a triggering condition beginning with with the word "when..." may be used after the specified triggering condition initiates, but before its impact upon the game state resolves.


Rules Reference, p.27 ST.7 Apply skill test results wrote:
... resolve the appropriate consequences at this time.

If there are multiple results to be applied during this step, the investigator performing the test applies those results in the order of his or her choice.


So, do I win the scenario without going insane? Or do I win, but still go insane? Or do I lose?

According to the Grim Rule, since I am in a rules dispute with myself, I must accept the worse possible result and therefore lose, but I am still curious what should happen.

Edit: officially resolved by FFG. Thanks Eyefink!

Eyefink wrote:
Must give a quick mea culpa. Here's the response from FFG:
Quote:
When resolving a “when” reaction (like Guard Dog’s ability), you should resolve that reaction and everything that happens as a result of it in full, before returning to resolve the effects of the original trigger. Basically, what that means is, you should resolve the damage dealt by the Guard Dog in full, along with any other reactions that may occur as a result of that damage (like Roland’s ability, or Evidence, or in this case, completing the Objective), before resolving the original attack that damaged the Guard Dog.


So in this case, you would deal the damage from the Ghoul Priest’s attack, assign damage to the Guard Dog, trigger its ability, deal 1 damage to the Ghoul Priest, and then resolve that damage in its entirety before resolving the damage originally dealt to you. (Lucky you!)


So technically, no trauma necessary in this case. That being said, if you wanted go 100% theme and take a trauma along with your victory, you have my blessing and a salute from my end.

Before you get too excited about interrupting steps 1 and 2 in Dealing Damage, remember that damage isn't successfully dealt until the end of 2. This was from another clarification question I had asked before:

Quote:
“When” is after you initiate the triggering condition, but before its impact upon the game state resolves. In this case, you’re precisely right – it would be after placing the damage tokens on the Guard Dog, but before resolving the damage (and possibly discarding it). So for example, you could use the Guard Dog’s ability even if it is dealt enough damage to defeat it. Enjoy!
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Eric Oh
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I may be wrong but I don't think the enemy attacks back during your attack

Sorry edit on this. I just checked and he had the retaliate keyword. Whoops on me.
 
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Stephan Beal
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According to the Learning to Play guide (sorry, i haven't made it further than that yet), page 7, section Choices and Conflicts...

Quote:
If the players are unsure how to resolve a rules or timing conflict, resolve the conflict in the manner the players perceive as the worst possible at that moment with regard to winning the scenario, and continue with the game.


Granted, that might "not" apply in such a case, but it sounds like it might.

IIRC, Eldritch Horror specifically covers simultaneous win/loss as "Investigators win."
 
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Eric Martin
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Since the Guard Dog can only attack back after it receives damage, I think you have to resolve the Ghoul Priest's retaliate attack before resolving the Dog's response to taking damage.

So I think this would be counted as a defeat for this scenario, but that doesn't mean that you are eliminated from the campaign. You just have to take one mental trauma before moving on to Scenario 2.

In this instance, though, I think it would be fair to consider the Ghoul Priest killed and not eligible to be shuffled into the encounter deck for the next scenario (no matter what the setup instructions for 'The Midnight Masks' might say to the contrary). Also, since you weren't able to fully resolve Act 3a, you house should not be burned down either.
 
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Christian Kløve
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Please please use spoiler tags. I am subscribed to all thing AH:TCG and I have not got my game yet, and it is very easy to get spoiled. For instance I already know

Spoiler (click to reveal)
that there is a Ghoul Priest. Not the biggest spoiler, but I would have liked not to know. Please use spoiler tags. Thank you
 
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Matthew McFarland
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So the thing that's confusing is the use of "when" and "after," which don't work quite like you might think. They have specific entries in the Reference which make it clearer, but it's not exactly intuitive. Essentially, when interrupts the game and after doesn't. It only matters when the triggering action results in multiple things to do--the example in the rules is (when/after) drawing a card. When would trigger after the card is drawn but before it resolves; after would trigger after the card is drawn and resolved. Paying for an Asset would be another.

Unfortunately, in this case there's nothing extra to resolve as part of taking the damage/horror, just taking it. So Roland would be driven insane before his doggy could take down the Ghoul Priest.

Edit: Actually, "when" here has a little meaning. The Guard Dog deals damage before the enemy exhausts from attacking; if it said "after" it would deal the damage after he exhausts. Not that it really matters...
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Dee
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I'm leaning toward considering this a dead enemy and a surviving Roland.

From RR, page 3, Ability -
Quote:
* A [circular arrow] ability with a triggering condition beginning
with the word “when...” may be used after the
specified triggering condition initiates, but before
its impact upon the game state resolves.


Triggering condition occurs for Guard Dog, so you can apply the Guard Dog ability. Enemy has fatal damage. The Act's objective is then triggered before the enemy's ability's impact on the game state resolves (the scenario is considered finished before Roland takes the fatal damage.

This feels valid per rule text (obviously assuming there's no other rule text I'm overlooking), but less valid thematically. The special thing about this interaction is how the Act's objective is triggered right in the middle of a stack of effects. I think it functions as a hard stop to all proceedings.

RR, page 4,Act Deck and Agenda Deck
Quote:
= Some instructions in the act and agenda decks
(as well as on other encounter cardtypes) contain
resolution points, in the format of: “(→R#).” If a
resolution point is reached, the scenario ends.
Read
the designated resolution in the campaign guide.
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Mathias Heilmann
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RR Page 27 (Skill Test Timing) wrote:

The card ability or game rule that initiated a skill test usually indicates the consequences of success and/or failure for that test. (Additionally, some other card abilities may contribute additional consequences, or modifiy existing consequences, at this time.) Resolve the appropriate consequences (based on the success or failure established during ST.6) at this time.

If there are multiple results to be applied during this step, the investigator performing the test applies those results in the order of his or her choice. (emphasis mine)

So I'd say you won.

EDIT: Typos
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mplain
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- Enemy attacks
-- Assign damage & horror to Guard Dog and to your investigator
--- Trigger Guard Dog's reaction ability to deal 1 damage to the enemy
---- Enemy is defeated
------ Trigger reactions "after the enemy is defeated" (Roland, Evidence)
------ Trigger Objective "if the enemy is defeated, advance"
-- Apply damage & horror to Guard Dog and to your investigator
--- Your investigator is defeated
- Next enemy attacks.
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Matthew McFarland
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Noaloha wrote:
Triggering condition occurs for Guard Dog, so you can apply the Guard Dog ability. Enemy has fatal damage. The Act's objective is then triggered before the enemy's ability's impact on the game state resolves (the scenario is considered finished before Roland takes the fatal damage.

This feels valid per rule text (obviously assuming there's no other rule text I'm overlooking), but less valid thematically. The special thing about this interaction is how the Act's objective is triggered right in the middle of a stack of effects. I think it functions as a hard stop to all proceedings.


The more I think about this, the more think this is right. My only argument would be that the damage/horror is already dealt--with "when" interrupting between being dealt the damage and eliminating the Guard Dog/investigator--so while the scenario may have been a success overall, Roland would still have to take a trauma for being defeated (which also works for me thematically).
 
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Quote:
RRG entry on the word "When"

The word "when" refers to the moment immediately after the specified timing point or triggering condition initiates, but before its impact upon the game state resolves. The resolution of a "when" ability interrupts the resolution of its timing point or triggering condition.

Guard Dog's ability triggers and resolves before damage/horror is applied, i.e. placed on Guard Dog and on your investigator. Subsequently the enemy is defeated, and the scenario ends -- all before damage/horror is applied.
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Matthew McFarland
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Guard Dog triggers when damage is dealt, meaning assigned and applied, but before that has an affect on the game state.

Edit: Strictly speaking, sure, the scenario would immediately end. Personally, I'd still play it that Roland gets a trauma.
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zachary johnston
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I'm wondering how 'The Grim Rule' applies here? (pg 2 of Rules Reference)
 
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Brandon H.
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Remember that the Grim Rule exists purely as a rule of thumb to allow you to quickly resolve rules questions that come up during play, to keep the game flowing. The "real answer" to a timing or rules issue isn't going to involve the Grim Rule, and may not follow it. It's just a way to avoid having to pull out your phone and start searching through rules threads mid-game.
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Tom Scutt
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Two things I like about this:

1) I think it does work thematically...I think the soul-wrenching horror on witnessing an eldritch monstrosity from beyond the mortal veil would probably be diminished by seeing it defeated by a dog.

2) I like the paradox that the Dog's ability was triggered by damage that never actually happens because of the effect of the Dog's ability
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Luis Mesas
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Steerpike wrote:

2) I like the paradox that the Dog's ability was triggered by damage that never actually happens because of the effect of the Dog's ability


Awesome!!
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Matthew McFarland
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Must give a quick mea culpa. Here's the response from FFG:
Quote:
When resolving a “when” reaction (like Guard Dog’s ability), you should resolve that reaction and everything that happens as a result of it in full, before returning to resolve the effects of the original trigger. Basically, what that means is, you should resolve the damage dealt by the Guard Dog in full, along with any other reactions that may occur as a result of that damage (like Roland’s ability, or Evidence, or in this case, completing the Objective), before resolving the original attack that damaged the Guard Dog.


So in this case, you would deal the damage from the Ghoul Priest’s attack, assign damage to the Guard Dog, trigger its ability, deal 1 damage to the Ghoul Priest, and then resolve that damage in its entirety before resolving the damage originally dealt to you. (Lucky you!)


So technically, no trauma necessary in this case. That being said, if you wanted go 100% theme and take a trauma along with your victory, you have my blessing and a salute from my end.

Before you get too excited about interrupting steps 1 and 2 in Dealing Damage, remember that damage isn't successfully dealt until the end of 2. This was from another clarification question I had asked before:

Quote:
“When” is after you initiate the triggering condition, but before its impact upon the game state resolves. In this case, you’re precisely right – it would be after placing the damage tokens on the Guard Dog, but before resolving the damage (and possibly discarding it). So for example, you could use the Guard Dog’s ability even if it is dealt enough damage to defeat it. Enjoy!
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Dee
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Eyefink wrote:
Here's the response from FFG: [...]


Thanks for getting an official verdict on this one. I was really curious about how it would shake out.
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Stephen Jacobsen
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Noaloha wrote:
Eyefink wrote:
Here's the response from FFG: [...]


Thanks for getting an official verdict on this one. I was really curious about how it would shake out.


Yes. Thanks so much!
With further readings of the rules, I was actually starting to go another way entirely. I was starting to think that everyone would simultaneously apply damage (by using the wording of step 2).

That's great to know that the "when" reactions resolve entirely before continuing the game.

Guard dog to the rescue! Good puppy!
 
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Mathias Heilmann
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I just had the same situation against the Rougarou! That was a very climatic end for that scenario. Though it would have made sense that Jenny carried away a trauma (in my case mental) form that fight. Remind me to buy my late puppy a nice gravestone.
 
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