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A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: 9 player version - Bolton instead of Tully rss

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Oscar Knutsson
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This is a first draft, comments are much appreciated.


SECOND DRAFT:



- Worked on the north, Moat Cailin and Twin's access points.
- Corrected 4 star raven to 3 star raven (for some reason this version came out oddly on this end, rest assured the problem will be corrected).
- Removed security of the Vale.

THIRD DRAFT:



- Reworking of North and the Vale as suggested.
- fixed the three star on KC track.

FOURTH DRAFT:



- further reworking of House Arryn to open up access points in and out of the region.
- overall minimizing the 'turtle-effect' amongst houses.
- making the sunset sea much more essential.
- Narrow sea is only access to Braavos via ships.

FITH DRAFT:



SIXTH DRAFT:



7th Draft:

- Fixed border at castle black, Vale/Gulltown/bloody gate
-Reworked Essos to function better in both defense and concentration of ships



I used
Victor Kostin
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's map

with the tweaks from
Tomasz Radwan
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map.

I removed Tully, after many gameplay's it proved to be very disliked and made the neck too cluttered. The lack of ships was devastating in most cases. Instead I tried to divide the north with a Bolton Rebellion.

When this map has been criticized extensively, we will put it to players use here on the forum.

Please, any comments are appreciated. No criticism is bad if productive. Point things out that seem unbalanced or if you like something, say so and it has a better chance of remaining.

- Longlake serves as the same purpose as Searoad Marches, a negotiation or instigaor for Stark and Bolton.
- Each house has two Strongholds and one castle.
- I saved a stronghold in the Twin's to give a fourth castle to fight over in the neck, same as Braavos. This castle can be fought over by: Arryn, Bolton, Greyjoy, Lannister, and Stark. 5 out of 9 houses. Please comment on this idea.


Bolton Deck first draft: I used
An-Lun Chin
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fantastic work for this set of cards, tweaking them for this version.

(I couldn't find Fat Walda Illustration)



[4] Roose Bolton - If you win this battle, you may chose the area to which your opponent's unit retreats. You must chose a legal area where your opponent loses the fewest units.

[3] Ramsey Snow - If you are lower on the fiefdom track than your opponent, this card gets +1 strength. If Reek is still in your hand this card gets two sword icons.

[2] Vargo Hoat
- Sword

[2] Harald Karstark - Sword, Fortification

[1] Walda Frey - After the battle, you may move a support, defend or consolidate power token, or place a regular one in an area not containing any orders but containing one or more of your units.

[1] Maester Wolkan - Fortification

[0] Reek - Any player who grants your opponent support must grant you support instead.


This first draft is pretty menacing. with both [2] having sword, Rooses ability (vanilla Rob Starks) and Ramseys buff, this deck can make some serious damage. Fat Walda gets Catelyn Tully's ability, and Reek takes aDwD Walder Frey's card ability from the Bolton expansion deck.

Eddard's two swords will then always kill something of Bolton, which I think is the weakness of this deck right now. But after trying the Tully deck of the last version, Catelyn's ability is actually really good for just getting more powertoken's when there is danger of raid in adjacent areas (The Gift + Castle Black). She can then open that area up and later play an order there for the farming of power, thus simulating the power struggle from the books and tv series.


UPDATE:

First draft of cards:

Baratheon


[4] - Stannis - if your opponent has a higher position on the influence Iron Throne track than you, Stannis gains +1 strength and a sword icon.
[3] - Ser Davos - If you win this combat, you may spend two power tokens to update your supply
[2] - Malisandre - If your "Stannis Baratheon" house card is in your discard pile, this card gains +1 Strength and a skull icon.
[2] - Axel Florent - Sword, Fortification
[1] - Alester Florent - If you're attacking, double all positive modifiers of defense March and Support orders.
[1] - Salladhor Saan - vanilla
[0] - Patchface (could be another character) - Vanilla


Tyrell


[4] - Renly Baratheon - If you win this combat, gain two power tokens. If you are higher on the Iron Throne Track than your opponent, Renly gains +1 Strength
[3] - Ser Loras Tyrell - Vanilla
[2] - Randyll Tarly - Sword, Sword
[2] - Mace Tyrell - You may immediately upgrade one of your attacking Footmen (not including supporting) to a Knight.
[1] - Margery Tyrell - If you're defending, Margery gets +1 Strength and one fortification Icon.
[1] Ser Garlan Tyrell - If attacking, your participating Knights (including supporting) add +3 strentgh instead of +1 +2.
[0] Queen of Thorns Cancel your opponents house card ability. You may spend 2 power tokens to steal that ability [and use it] instead.

GREYJOY:



[4] - Euron Crow's Eye - Sword Sword
[3] - Victarion Greyjoy - all Greyjoy ships counts as having 2 strength instead of 1.
[2] - Asha Greyjoy - If combat is happening at sea, Asha gets + 1 strength and wins all ties.
[2] Balon Greyjoy - The strength of your opponents house card is reduced to 0.
[1] - Theon Greyjoy - If attacking without support, this card gains +2 strength and one sword icon. If defending, this card counts as strength 0.
[1] - Dagmer Cleftjaw - Fortification, Fortification.
[0] - Aeron Damphair - You may pay 2 power tokens to immediately play another house card from your hand.
 
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Cody Skrine
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I don't see any immediate problems. Need to see a draft of cards before I can say more.
 
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Cody Skrine
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I might put a small castle in Moat Cailin as well actually to take pressure off the Twins and to have Stark, Bolton and Arryn fight over.
 
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Neil Oxner
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Looks interesting at this point. Agree with Cody, need to see the cards 1st.
 
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Oscar Knutsson
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The discussion of more castles has been up before, most people argued that with more castles comes less aggression and faster dominant players. It would also allow Arryn to be able to take 7 castles by holding three seas, where as one of those castles are actually not neutral but Bolton's.

If I added an extra one it would probably be to split bitterbridge or Blackwater and make one in the middle. no player could then get all 3 neutral castles, 2 at the most.

- note Greywater's watch boarders with The Fingers. I think this needs to change to make the Twin's more accessable to Arryn, Bolton and Stark (from Moat Cailin). Thoughts?

- I put the new port by Torrhen's Square. Should there be a port by Deepwood as well?


 
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Dennis Yau
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I think the Bolton Capitol needs a harbour - every other coastal capitol has one to defend against the sea invasion.

I'm not sure that Blazewater Bay is even necessary - maybe remove that and put the port back on Deepwood?
 
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Oscar Knutsson
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lumibot wrote:
I think the Bolton Capitol needs a harbour - every other coastal capitol has one to defend against the sea invasion.


Good point, I was considering a slight narrative influence here as Bolton doesn't really have a fleet influence, they're also on the top with only narrow sea (which will be occupied by Arryn first) to worry about, any other than arryn need to go through narrow sea to reach them.

Any other who agree with Lumibot?

lumibot wrote:
I'm not sure that Blazewater Bay is even necessary - maybe remove that and put the port back on Deepwood?


Well, here I was thinking a protection against Greyjoy. Greyoy do best when they control the ocean. Since there are two major castles on the West coast it is very easy for GJ to take the Bay of Ice, force ships to retreat to port, then perhaps take the castle and destroy the fleet completely. No one can help to support Stark against a Greyjoy invasion if GJ controls the sunset sea (which he needs to to march into Bay of Ice. While Lannister can actually get two supporters to claim Sunset Sea. having Blazewater it allows stark to have some more protection, especially if Bolton and GJ agrees on killing Stark, it takes a little more effort from GJ to get in there. Holding 4 seas is more or less 1 ship per sea region and two to spare. That is very hard to control. Therefore it would allow GJ to take Deepwood, but not necessarily get Torrhen's square with naval support as easily.

Make sense? Do you disagree with this logic? Anyone else want to pitch in?


Thanks Lumibot, your comments are fantastic. Keep them coming.

I will try to get a castle down south for tyrell, Martell, Baratheon, Lannister and perhaps even targaryen could get access to.
 
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Just a couple of comments:
1) The Stark capital is the only one with only one barrel+crown.
2) The Stark-Bolton conflict seems to be unavoidable (much more than Greyjoy-Lannister in vanilla). They will fight their eternal war while Greyjoy and Arryn slowly take the northern seas. You need to ease this conflict a little by suitable mountain ranges in order to give both northern houses realistic winning chances, IMHO.
3) Because Tully is neglected and the North is at war, Arryn will have an even better time than in the first 9player maps. They have the access to the Twins, Braavos, and Dragonstone as well as to the Shivering Sea.
4) Why gets the first spot on the KC 4 stars? The raven appears to be already a big advantage
 
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Oscar Knutsson
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MasterOfCoin wrote:
Just a couple of comments:
1) The Stark capital is the only one with only one barrel+crown.
2) The Stark-Bolton conflict seems to be unavoidable (much more than Greyjoy-Lannister in vanilla). They will fight their eternal war while Greyjoy and Arryn slowly take the northern seas. You need to ease this conflict a little by suitable mountain ranges in order to give both northern houses realistic winning chances, IMHO.
3) Because Tully is neglected and the North is at war, Arryn will have an even better time than in the first 9player maps. They have the access to the Twins, Braavos, and Dragonstone as well as to the Shivering Sea.
4) Why gets the first spot on the KC 4 stars? The raven appears to be already a big advantage


Fantastic comments!

1) good point! Should both Dreadfort and Wintefell have Barrel + Crown?

2) Sure, I see that point. I don't generally like mountains because they tend to make the game rigid. In other words, narrow down access points into other players regions and guiding the game play that way. I'll look into it. Any suggestions on where to place those points?

3) Do you suggest removing the Castle in the Twins? You make a great case here so I absolutely agree, something needs to be done about Arryn. Although I agree with the strength in naval advantage here, I would say that there will be 6 ships up north rather than the standard 3-4 ships as the north doesn't split the fleet. Perhaps it is not a bad idea to remove some mountain regions around the Eyrie and the Vale? Making Arryn actually subjected to invasion? I have yet to see a game where someone manages to invade them.

4) That is actually a mistake, the original file I used had it that way and I simply forgot to alter it. Thanks for pointing that out!

I very much appreciate your comments! Please add critique as they come to you.
 
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First of all, on a second view I have to withdraw my Arryn valuation. Arryn can only win this game if they control the Narrow Sea. However on the current map they can recruit ships only at Gulltown so Bolton or Baratheon have better chances to control the Narrow Sea. Maybe swap the fortress and the castle?
And second, the Dragonstone (+port!) position is confusing. Which seas do border Dragonstone?

To my comments:
1) Yes I would add a barrel to Winterfell.

2+3) I would rather say the game play is guided when there is an unavoidable conflict and when only few houses have, in principle, access to this conflict. I can not offer a prefect solution but some thoughts:
2.1) Introduce the White Knife from White Harbor to somewhere North-East of Winterfell. So the land conflict will be fought in the lands below the wall. -> Rearrange the lands below the wall in such a way that mobile warfare is possible. Suggestion: As many territories as suitable so the conflict can not be won by a sudden assault. -> Bolton can become a sea power, as alternative. -> We need to find an alternative goal for Stark.
2.2) Disputed lands in Greywater Watch + Moat Cailin + the Twins: Rearrange those territories in a way that Stark, Bolton, Greyjoy, and Arryn (and Lannister?!) have to compete.

 
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Oscar Knutsson
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new map added to original post!

i'll respond to your comments soon MasterofCoin. your help is very much appreciated!
 
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Oscar Knutsson
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MasterOfCoin wrote:
First of all, on a second view I have to withdraw my Arryn valuation. Arryn can only win this game if they control the Narrow Sea. However on the current map they can recruit ships only at Gulltown so Bolton or Baratheon have better chances to control the Narrow Sea. Maybe swap the fortress and the castle?
And second, the Dragonstone (+port!) position is confusing. Which seas do border Dragonstone?


Am I understanding you correctly if you're stating that the only way to muster ships is through castles/fortifications with a port? If so I believe this is wrong. You can actually muster ships through any castle that has an adjacent sea area. So The Vale is a valid option to muster ships from.

The Dragonstone port boarders to Shipbreaker Bay and Blackwater Bay. It's been working pretty well in the past games we've played.


MasterOfCoin wrote:

To my comments:
1) Yes I would add a barrel to Winterfell.


Check

MasterOfCoin wrote:

2+3) I would rather say the game play is guided when there is an unavoidable conflict and when only few houses have, in principle, access to this conflict. I can not offer a prefect solution but some thoughts:
2.1) Introduce the White Knife from White Harbor to somewhere North-East of Winterfell. So the land conflict will be fought in the lands below the wall. -> Rearrange the lands below the wall in such a way that mobile warfare is possible. Suggestion: As many territories as suitable so the conflict can not be won by a sudden assault. -> Bolton can become a sea power, as alternative. -> We need to find an alternative goal for Stark.
2.2) Disputed lands in Greywater Watch + Moat Cailin + the Twins: Rearrange those territories in a way that Stark, Bolton, Greyjoy, and Arryn (and Lannister?!) have to compete.



Ok, I can see that logic too.

White Knife is there on the second draft. As for new option for Stark, perhaps open up the wall between Barrowlands and Greywaters watch? Alternatively extend the map with one long sea area outside of sunset sea that runs all the way down to West Summer Sea. This would allow for Starks to sail down and attack Tyrell. Unless I make it in the map, I don't know how it would work game wise, but Starks are now, as you say, very limited in their options. I could also rearrange the Greyjoy lands so that there is a canal down to the twins that is not via moat cailin or Greywater's Watch.
 
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Lysandestolpe wrote:
Am I understanding you correctly if you're stating that the only way to muster ships is through castles/fortifications with a port? If so I believe this is wrong. You can actually muster ships through any castle that has an adjacent sea area. So The Vale is a valid option to muster ships from.

On your first map there was a mountain range separating the Vale from the sea.

Lysandestolpe wrote:
The Dragonstone port boarders to Shipbreaker Bay and Blackwater Bay. It's been working pretty well in the past games we've played.

Please redraw the sea lines, now Dragonstone "might" border Narrow Sea or "might not" border Shipsbreaker Bay.


Lysandestolpe wrote:
White Knife is there on the second draft.

I guess a proper river has to be connected to the sea, right? ;-) Anyway you can add bridges if required.

About the North, alternatives for Stark:
1) I would add a castle somewhere at Moat Cailin or the Twins which you can only hold if you have at least on ally. So here can also Stark find his aim.
2) Add 1 or even 2 territories in the uppermost North, e.g. split Castle Black in a shore and a land territory. Maybe add a castle to the land territory. I have two reasonings: The North is vast. It should take long to come e.g. from Dreadfort to Winterfell. A large number of terrotories underlines this geographical fact. Second, Stark and Bolton can fight for "Castle Black". This smaller conflict is less lethal but even a diplomatic solution is possible as it is only a remote castle.

So finally Stark would have access to Flint's Finger, "Moat Cailin", and Castle Black. Should be enough to be not too predictable.

Anyway, I am looking forward for a better solution. arrrh
 
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Oscar Knutsson
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Great comments, I will address more of them when I have more time. I just want to clearify, as it seems there is some miscommunication: Dragonstone boarders the Narrow Sea, Shipbreaker bay, and Blackwater bay. Dragonstone poet boarders all but the narrow sea.

I will take a look at it again but I didn't hear or see any confusion regarding that in previous games.

Perhaps it would be doable to remove the islands and make those territories on land up by the gift and Castle black?

Thanks again, your comments are very helpful.
 
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Aurora's thoughts on House Arryn

Summary:
The Vale area of the map, as it stands, is all but unassailable without a concerted effort and specific card play from multiple opponents. However, it is also difficult and risky to spread beyond its borders. In almost any direction, attacks not only proceed unsupported but move into supported areas. Worse, usually to make such moves Arryn can't play support on her own.

Problems and Solutions, as specific as possible

The Eyrie:

As the map currently stands, the Eyrie is a useless muster point. It takes 2 marches just to get things into position and a 3rd march to move into areas not initially controlled. It almost hurts Arryn to muster there since it adds an army against the supply cap and then requires 2 marches to get anywhere (and Arryn may only have 2 marches available!)

Recommend: Shorten the mountains to touch the Vale and even the Kingsroad or the Fingers. The Eyrie will still be a defensible through probably-unraidable support coming from the Bloody Gate. If this is considered not enough, make the Garrison stronger.

The Bloody Gate

As it currently stands, the Bloody Gate provides valuable power tokens that can be sacrificed for strong, unraidable support. However, it also is a logistical bottleneck that sucks. If the Eyrie is opened up as I mention above, then likely no changes are needed

The Vale

I Can't imagine why this doesn't touch The Narrow Sea. Having two Castles that can muster only into the same sea zone is frustrating

Recommend: Remove those mountains completely


Gulltown


This port on the current map serves no purpose outside of power token generation. If Arryn loses the Bay of Crabs, she is truly f'd anyway and only being able to put a single ship into port at a time is scarcely a way out.

Recommend: Downgrade the Vale and upgrade Gulltown between strongholds and castles. Do what I said with the Gulltown mountains, which provides a 2nd mustering point into the water without allowing for 2 ships to go out there.

The Bay Of Crabs

Currently an essential defensive point in the style of the Sea of Myrth, Blackwater Bay, the Golden Sound, and so on. The issue with the current map is that it is also the only channel out of the Vale on the East side so moving through it requires losing the essential defensive nature of it.

Recommend: Do the other things

The Narrow Sea

While this isn't Arryn territory, it remains relevant. The Narrow Sea is the most obvious space for Arryn to attack from towards either Targaryen, Baratheon, or Stark. However, it is also currently necessary to attack any of them (and is a 2nd-tier location after Bay of Crabs). Without Narrow Sea, Arryn can mount attacks against only The Twins or Crackclaw Point.

Further, the attacks that go from the Narrow Sea always go into support and cannot be reinforced by Arryn in any way. In this way, Stark is all but unassailable. Targaryen provides a target that is mediocre at best (no castles, no support options). Baratheon, however, is incredibly vulnerable to attacks and raids through the Narrow Sea, which poses a problem because Baratheon is also vulnerable from Martell and Targaryen, for whom he poses the easiest target.

Recommend: Complicated. No idea.

The Fingers and the Kingsroad

These 2 serve much the same purpose. They are supply bulwarks and narrow avenues of attack into other lands but that attack is funneled very precisely into only specific zones (Crackclaw and the Twins).

Recommend: Opening up the Eyrie is part of it, but simply opening up more routes out of these 2 zones is huge. If we are removing Tully, I suggest also removing that river.
 
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Cody Skrine
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Regarding the Narrow Sea issue:

Arryn needs somewhere to go other then the Narrow Sea. The only option is the Byte.

1. Move the border between the Byte and Narrow sea so it is either halfway along the Vale, though the Vale would then likely need a port.

2. Extend the Bay of Crabs north a bit and move the Narrow Sea/Byte border so the Bay of Crabs has access to both in the way the Golden Sound has access to both Iron Man's Bay and Sunset Sea.

I favour option 2 the more I think about it.
 
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Oscar Knutsson
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Fourth Draft up in first post.
 
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The Impossible Girl
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The port in Dragonstone is still a bit confusing, imo
 
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Oscar Knutsson
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Fith edition up after comments about Bolton Stark entry and exit point issue.
 
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Cody Skrine
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Eh the dragonstone port seems fairly clear to me. It's a mini zone that touches both sea zones.
 
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Nice to see the map is improving! :-)

Some comments:
1) I would shorten the White Knife a bit such that Longlake and Queenscown are connected. Otherwise the uppest North is really a bottleneck.

2) Add a castle either at Moat Cailin/The Twins or at Castle Black

3) I do not understand the text of your Stannis card. What means "influence track"? Anyone of them? Or all of them, i.e. adding up to 3CS? (Would be an interesting feature!)

4) I feel strange about Renly Baratheon in the Tyrell hand. Sure in the books, Tyrell supportet Renly's claim but he was never a "Tyrell". Further (but this would hold for more cards...), with Daenerys in Pentos, Renly would be dead for long now...^^
Maybe just change the character.

5) "Personal" problem with Dragonstone/-port design: The problem is that Dragonstone is a tiny land territory which is far over-represented by the white box. How can three seas be connected by this tiny peace of land? Anyway, if indeed three seas are bordering Dragonstone, also ships in the port should be able to go to all three seas.
It would be more realistic and less confusing if Dragonstone is just embedded in one of those seas.
 
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Oscar Knutsson
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MasterOfCoin wrote:
Nice to see the map is improving! :-)

Some comments:
1) I would shorten the White Knife a bit such that Longlake and Queenscown are connected. Otherwise the uppest North is really a bottleneck.


Thanks man!
you mean shorten Castle Black? Should both castle black and Queenscrown boarder Long Lake?


I see now what you mean. Not "LongLake", but the long lake. lol haha ^^

MasterOfCoin wrote:
2) Add a castle either at Moat Cailin/The Twins or at Castle Black


In that case I think the Twins has the most potential to be a fourth castle for most players.


MasterOfCoin wrote:
3) I do not understand the text of your Stannis card. What means "influence track"? Anyone of them? Or all of them, i.e. adding up to 3CS? (Would be an interesting feature!)


haha I didn't even realize it said that. It should, of course, be Iron Throne track. we wouldn't want a str 7 three sword Stannis I think.


MasterOfCoin wrote:
4) I feel strange about Renly Baratheon in the Tyrell hand. Sure in the books, Tyrell supportet Renly's claim but he was never a "Tyrell". Further (but this would hold for more cards...), with Daenerys in Pentos, Renly would be dead for long now...^^
Maybe just change the character.


No that's not necessary so? Doesn't Robert send assassins for Daenarys? And if Robert is alive, so is Renly. He doesn't die until Stannis and him fall out after Robert's death, which is when the entry-setting for the game. At this point Daenarys is a young child about to be sold to Kahl Drogo. Which I think would be a good setting to base the deck on. As the game engine functions it s natural for every player to begin setting up their establishment, conquering cities and towns and regions. The player of the Targaryen deck gets to do what every other player does, change the outcome of the books and make their own story.

Characters for the Targaryen deck:

[4] Kahl Drogo
[3] Ser Jorah Mormont
[2] Vicerys Targaryen
[2] Qotho
[1] Illyrio Mopatis
[1] Daenarys Targaryen
[1] Jogoh

or similar.


MasterOfCoin wrote:
5) "Personal" problem with Dragonstone/-port design: The problem is that Dragonstone is a tiny land territory which is far over-represented by the white box. How can three seas be connected by this tiny peace of land? Anyway, if indeed three seas are bordering Dragonstone, also ships in the port should be able to go to all three seas.
It would be more realistic and less confusing if Dragonstone is just embedded in one of those seas.


Well, as much as it would be great to get everything to work out perfectly story wise and geographically accurate, the game need to be balanced an function properly. In a previous version, the port linked to both shipbreaker bay and Blackwater bay and functioned as a maneuver for baratheon, who now is completely surrounded. It has worked really well for baratheon to have multiple options of retreat should Shipbreaker bay fail its defence, and with no unraidable support from blackwater bay, the port can serve as extra protection, at the cost of harvesting CP.

I think that it may be confusing, but the game-prupose is actually a quite smart way of solving the issue that happened before.
 
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The Impossible Girl
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Moniker12 wrote:
Eh the dragonstone port seems fairly clear to me. It's a mini zone that touches both sea zones.


I didn't realize it touches both on purpose. Not my Favorite solution but ports area but inelegant from the start
 
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Oscar Knutsson
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Sixth edition map is up based on comments. Also produced Greyjoy Deck with the stated abilities.
 
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I'd lower the Balon Greyjoy card to 1 strength instead of 2. I've played (and won) with Greyjoy so much in this game and 2 strength Balon always struck me as OP. 1 strength feels good
 
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