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Subject: Families and Divorce rss

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Kelsey Rinella
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I don't know a lot about divorce, but I've been reading a bit about the benefits of families, and it agrees with my general impression that, while every family deserves support, two-parent families are pretty sweet. This post suggests that a desirable method of increasing the durability of two-parent homes and preventing divorce is a mandatory waiting period.

Does that accord with the views of those with more experience of divorce? I feel like it's a pretty strange solution. More natural, I would think, would be an intermediate option which does more than merely separate the couple. Apparently, about the only thing which fills this role now is counseling. I know even less about marriage counseling than divorce, so maybe that's a more complete option than I think, but it seem to rely on essentially persuading people to address the causes of their dissatisfaction, rather than giving them any assistance doing that.

So, what I'm wondering is whether it would be possible to identify some of the common causes of divorce, and offer the opportunity to recruit state power to address them directly for couples who want to stay together but aren't quite able to address those problems themselves. Maybe this is stuff social workers already do, but I'm thinking that someone who is a serial cheater might yield passwords to an independent monitor and consent to periodic surveillance, or that someone who has caused others members of the family to feel unsafe might be the only person unable to enter a particular room in the house and might be banned from access to weapons.

Is this kind of intermediate step available anywhere? Might it help, if not? If it does exist, does it seem to help?
 
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Robert Wesley
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Re: Families and Divorce
WE could "inquire" upon kuhrusty and afterward ALSO poke him in his eye with a 'sharp stick' as "injury heaped on insult"! /arrrh
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Kelsey Rinella
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GROGnads wrote:
WE could "inquire" upon kuhrusty and afterward ALSO poke him in his eye with a 'sharp stick' as "injury heaped on insult"! /arrrh


So you're suggesting that asking people who've suffered through a divorce how we stop them, because they're obviously terrible for you and everyone else, might be kind of a dick move?

I … may not have thought this through.
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Robert Wesley
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rinelk wrote:
So you're suggesting that asking people who've suffered through a divorce how we stop them, because they're obviously terrible for you and everyone else, might be kind of a dick move?

I … may not have thought this through.
They're "divorced" already, so, l-o-n-g PAST the "stop-gap" measures and not everyone's situation were even similar overall.
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Junior McSpiffy
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rinelk wrote:
GROGnads wrote:
WE could "inquire" upon kuhrusty and afterward ALSO poke him in his eye with a 'sharp stick' as "injury heaped on insult"! /arrrh


So you're suggesting that asking people who've suffered through a divorce how we stop them, because they're obviously terrible for you and everyone else, might be kind of a dick move?

I … may not have thought this through.


The alternative is to ask undivorced people about divorce. I mean, this place can go on and on about what black people should do with their lives to make them better. So I'll give advising about divorce a shot.
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Robert Wesley
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GameCrossing wrote:
The alternative is to ask undivorced people about divorce. I mean, this place can go on and on about what black people should do with their lives to make them better. So I'll give advising about divorce a shot.
Could you keep the 'proselytizing' to an 'exclusion'? and "GO!"
 
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GROGnads wrote:
WE could "inquire" upon kuhrusty and afterward ALSO poke him in his eye with a 'sharp stick'

Bah, I don't think I have anything useful to say about it, other than that the first few paragraphs of the article did not seem useful to me. I mean, the whole concept of an "unnecessary divorce" is suspicious; if one of the people wants a divorce, it's necessary, and I think I agree with the "when couples come to a decision to end their marriage, the state's only job is to help them get an equitable and efficient divorce" sentiment the author is arguing against. A waiting period may be good for some relationships but bad for others, and requiring it for everyone seems bad.

If you want opinions on divorce, you should ask someone who's collected more data points than I have; I defer here to the accumulated wisdom of my colleague DWTripp.
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Derry Salewski
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I haven't read that.

I assume it's fucking nuts.

Most people stay in shitty relationships for far too long as it is.

Letting them have piles of kids they're not ready for is the actual problem.

Not teaching people about sex and respect and how to look out for themselves and not having a very good environment for many people to do that anyway is an actual problem.

The (I assume) millions of people out there not paying child support is a problem.

By all means put a wait period on marriage or child licenses (I know the latter is (sadly) not real.) Making them wait to get out of their stupid fucking choices though sounds bad.



-Mildly biased child of hateful, messy divorce, remarriage and abuse.
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Moshe Callen
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The Orthodox Jewish shidduch system is supposed to address some of the issues but frankly has its own issues. The upside is making sure people go into marriage realistically and with everyone on the same page about what to expect. The bad parts are hard to explain without knowing the culture but it amounts to the system favoring people ho are statistically average within their communities.
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If you want an institution to be respected and thought about as worthy you make it hard to get into, not hard to get out of.
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Moshe Callen
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One big problem I see lies in cultural attitudes. I do not think people should get married who do not love one another but I also do not think people should gt married just because they love each other, even if they happen to have children together. There needs to be an honest open commitment to build a life together. Divorce must always be possible and reasonably feasible but it should ideally be a last resort, not the first. Of course that choice in practice has to be the couple's choice-- no one else's.

Divorce is like abortion. It has to be an option but it's one nobody wants to need. When it's needed is no one's call but the people involved.
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I tend to see marriage in more practical terms. It's a legal contract that you either have practical use for or you don't.

The problems caused by long term couples separating are generally made easier if they had some sort of marriage contract (here there are various different marriage-like things. My girlfriend and I aren't married, but we do 'legally live together'). If you are intending to live as a couple for a significant amount of time, then marriage is probably going to be a useful contract for you to have. This is true whether you end up staying together forever, or if you end up getting a divorce 5 years later. Indeed, many of the benefits of having a marriage contract will only come up if the couple separates.

The effects on children are imo largely independent of marriage.
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I have been divorced and having a waiting period is useless. One side wants a divorce (usually the wife) and there is nothing that will change her mind. The best thing is to just get it over with so both sides can move on with their life.

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galad2003 wrote:
I have been divorced and having a waiting period is useless. One side wants a divorce (usually the wife) and there is nothing that will change her mind. The best thing is to just get it over with so both sides can move on with their life.


I assumed he meant before marriage, not before divorce.
 
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The #1 reason for Divorce outside of various types of domestic abuse is of course, selfishness.
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Chris Binkowski
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rinelk wrote:
I don't know a lot about divorce, but I've been reading a bit about the benefits of families, and it agrees with my general impression that, while every family deserves support, two-parent families are pretty sweet. This post suggests that a desirable method of increasing the durability of two-parent homes and preventing divorce is a mandatory waiting period.

Does that accord with the views of those with more experience of divorce? I feel like it's a pretty strange solution. More natural, I would think, would be an intermediate option which does more than merely separate the couple. Apparently, about the only thing which fills this role now is counseling. I know even less about marriage counseling than divorce, so maybe that's a more complete option than I think, but it seem to rely on essentially persuading people to address the causes of their dissatisfaction, rather than giving them any assistance doing that.

So, what I'm wondering is whether it would be possible to identify some of the common causes of divorce, and offer the opportunity to recruit state power to address them directly for couples who want to stay together but aren't quite able to address those problems themselves. Maybe this is stuff social workers already do, but I'm thinking that someone who is a serial cheater might yield passwords to an independent monitor and consent to periodic surveillance, or that someone who has caused others members of the family to feel unsafe might be the only person unable to enter a particular room in the house and might be banned from access to weapons.

Is this kind of intermediate step available anywhere? Might it help, if not? If it does exist, does it seem to help?


Your post is just wrong on many levels.

The fact that you see 'two parent families' as generally a good idea shows how tainted you are by liberal/leftist poison. OF COURSE IT'S GOOD!

The fact that you feel the need to interject in other people's unique, troubled family life is disturbing. Learn a phrase: 'None of my business.'

The mandatory waiting period is terrible - by the time people start the divorce proceedings, they've already been dealing with a troubled marriage for some time, or are dealing with a serious situation (abuse, adultery).

What we need is less government involvement in our lives, not more.
 
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Kelsey Rinella
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Sarxis wrote:
rinelk wrote:
I don't know a lot about divorce, but I've been reading a bit about the benefits of families, and it agrees with my general impression that, while every family deserves support, two-parent families are pretty sweet. This post suggests that a desirable method of increasing the durability of two-parent homes and preventing divorce is a mandatory waiting period.

Does that accord with the views of those with more experience of divorce? I feel like it's a pretty strange solution. More natural, I would think, would be an intermediate option which does more than merely separate the couple. Apparently, about the only thing which fills this role now is counseling. I know even less about marriage counseling than divorce, so maybe that's a more complete option than I think, but it seem to rely on essentially persuading people to address the causes of their dissatisfaction, rather than giving them any assistance doing that.

So, what I'm wondering is whether it would be possible to identify some of the common causes of divorce, and offer the opportunity to recruit state power to address them directly for couples who want to stay together but aren't quite able to address those problems themselves. Maybe this is stuff social workers already do, but I'm thinking that someone who is a serial cheater might yield passwords to an independent monitor and consent to periodic surveillance, or that someone who has caused others members of the family to feel unsafe might be the only person unable to enter a particular room in the house and might be banned from access to weapons.

Is this kind of intermediate step available anywhere? Might it help, if not? If it does exist, does it seem to help?


Your post is just wrong on many levels.

The fact that you see 'two parent families' as generally a good idea shows how tainted you are by liberal/leftist poison. OF COURSE IT'S GOOD!

The fact that you feel the need to interject in other people's unique, troubled family life is disturbing. Learn a phrase: 'None of my business.'

The mandatory waiting period is terrible - by the time people start the divorce proceedings, they've already been dealing with a troubled marriage for some time, or are dealing with a serious situation (abuse, adultery).

What we need is less government involvement in our lives, not more.


Man, that seemed like a weird response. I'm wrong on so many levels, like two-parent families being good and my skepticism about the proposed solution of waiting periods? Calm down, and read the words, man. I think we disagree less than you think.

What I'm suggesting is that, though I don't know much about it, I would prefer to replace waiting periods with the option to request state-funded assistance that would provide concrete help to address the problems in the marriage (rather than counseling, which I take to be a way of helping people be motivated to help their own marriages and more effective in their choice of methods). I'm not saying the government should do anything to people which they don't want. It's none of the government's business until the people considering divorce ask them to make it their business.

I'm trying to find a way of increasing the rate at which people make the decisions they themselves would wish they had made which infringes on their liberty less than a divorce waiting period. I'm not trying to be callous about the cost of divorce, nor insert governmental obstacles people's chosen paths. But that's part of my problem--I see this as ideologically unobjectionable to everyone, but fear that my attachment to abstraction is blinding me to practical effects which matter more.
 
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Since the primary source of conflict for couples is finances, I think the easiest and cheapest way for the state to reduce divorce is to provide much more practical fiscal education in high school and of course to try to raise the standard of living for average Americans.

State meddling with divorce feels like trying to nail the barn door shut after the horses have left.
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
If you want an institution to be respected and thought about as worthy you make it hard to get into, not hard to get out of.

whac3 wrote:

Divorce is like abortion. It has to be an option but it's one nobody wants to need. When it's needed is no one's call but the people involved.

rylfrazier wrote:
meddling with divorce feels like trying to nail the barn door shut after the horses have left.


I think these are all excellent points. If you want to lower divorce rates, the first thing to do is to stop the rush for everyone to get married swiftly. Between government incentives and societal pressure, people are pushed into marriage as a default rather than a carefully considered decision. I think more consideration over when -- and if -- it is the right choice for people would be useful.

As mentioned, once people want a divorce, it's already too late.
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Kelsey Rinella
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Osirus wrote:
If you want to lower divorce rates, the first thing to do is to stop the rush for everyone to get married swiftly.


How?
 
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rinelk wrote:
Osirus wrote:
If you want to lower divorce rates, the first thing to do is to stop the rush for everyone to get married swiftly.


How?


First I want to say I apologize for my incensed tone to my previous reply. But I share the same sentiment with others that the government is the LAST institution I want dealing with issues of marriage and divorce.

But I think the answer to 'How?' is a complex one. A higher standard of morality is one key though. If people learned sexual self-control and abstinence before marriage, being married would be valued more.
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rinelk wrote:
I don't know a lot about divorce, but I've been reading a bit about the benefits of families, and it agrees with my general impression that, while every family deserves support, two-parent families are pretty sweet. This post suggests that a desirable method of increasing the durability of two-parent homes and preventing divorce is a mandatory waiting period.

We have a mandatory waiting period here, which is 366 days from the date of separation. Additionally, if it's been two years or less since the date of marriage, there is mandatory counselling.

I think the one year cooling off period is a good thing, and stops hasty decisions.
 
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Sarxis wrote:
rinelk wrote:
Osirus wrote:
If you want to lower divorce rates, the first thing to do is to stop the rush for everyone to get married swiftly.


How?


First I want to say I apologize for my incensed tone to my previous reply. But I share the same sentiment with others that the government is the LAST institution I want dealing with issues of marriage and divorce.

But I think the answer to 'How?' is a complex one. A higher standard of morality is one key though. If people learned sexual self-control and abstinence before marriage, being married would be valued more.


I strongly disagree with the abstinence piece. That just sets the stage for profound sexual incompatibility.

I'm not sure it even has to do with morality. It seems much simpler.

Successful marriage requires work, lots and lots of work. How do we prepare people for that work? How do we help people once they're inside the institution? Nothing keeps two people from getting married, having problems, neither seeking or receiving help, and then that ending in bitterness and divorce.

How many marriages are sustainable with intervention? I get that it being mandatory intervention is probably bad, but why can't someone make a simple counseling service. Why can't counseling be the thing you turn to when a 22 year old couple who's been married for 6 months says "hell, we seem to be arguing over chores a lot, what's going on?" There's so much stigma to counseling now, because it's largely just two people saying our marriage is super broken, do we fix it at all, and if not what do we do. It's like instead of changing a flat tire when it first happens you drive on it until the rim is bent to hell and the axle falls off and you drive into a telephone poll, then ask the mechanic, we can make it like new right?

I get that social and family networks exist for people, but let's be clear, those only work if there are healthy role models to turn to. If everyone around you is equally screwed, that doesn't help. A counseling alternative certainly doesn't have to be government based either.

You could have education before the fact too. I'm pretty sure "How to not be fucking intolerable to your significant other" would have done more for me than three years of french or general music.
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sbszine wrote:
rinelk wrote:
I don't know a lot about divorce, but I've been reading a bit about the benefits of families, and it agrees with my general impression that, while every family deserves support, two-parent families are pretty sweet. This post suggests that a desirable method of increasing the durability of two-parent homes and preventing divorce is a mandatory waiting period.

We have a mandatory waiting period here, which is 366 days from the date of separation. Additionally, if it's been two years or less since the date of marriage, there is mandatory counselling.

I think the one year cooling off period is a good thing, and stops hasty decisions.


Stops hasty decisions, or just drags out the pain?
 
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wifwendell wrote:
sbszine wrote:
rinelk wrote:
I don't know a lot about divorce, but I've been reading a bit about the benefits of families, and it agrees with my general impression that, while every family deserves support, two-parent families are pretty sweet. This post suggests that a desirable method of increasing the durability of two-parent homes and preventing divorce is a mandatory waiting period.

We have a mandatory waiting period here, which is 366 days from the date of separation. Additionally, if it's been two years or less since the date of marriage, there is mandatory counselling.

I think the one year cooling off period is a good thing, and stops hasty decisions.


Stops hasty decisions, or just drags out the pain?


I'd be interested to know how many couples cancel a divorce once one has been started.

Not interested enough to look up the stats myself, mind you...
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