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Subject: Feeling dejected... (box 1, maybe 2, spoilers)(rant) rss

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Dave Martin
Canada
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Hi guys! I joined because I'm looking for some advice... Either to improve or to confirm I should just drop this game.

So we've played five games of Seafall so far (prologue plus 4 games) and opened the second box at the end of tonight's game.

And I've been in last place all the way through. Last game, even with a player being absent, I ended SIXTEEN points behind the leader. Then that same leader won AGAIN tonight and despite feeling like I got a lot more effective... I'm now down TWENTY ONE behind! I'm just slipping back and I feel like I'm just struggling pointlessly.

I got tons of experience playing games, simple ones, complex ones, new and old... and I've never so consistantly lost all the time (except maybe at Codex, screw that game...). I feel like this game is filled with options presented as equivalents to one another but in actuality they are not. It's filled with noob baits and trap options and I fell for all of them! Upgrading Sail is nice but Raid is clearly the superior strategy, at least in the early game (doesn't help we saw the Fog event like four times already). You roll a bunch of die to discover a harbor and gain 1 glory and some ressource, then a dude comes in and gets 1 glory from a raid (with roughy the same risk as you did!) but also gets a FREE upgrade AND an extra glory! Totally unfair! Buying and selling stuff? Forget about it!

I also feel like whenever I try a big play I get screwed by the dice! Or even if I do succeed my ship is too damaged to do jack squat and I have to waste turn getting back home because I spent all my money upgrading it in the first place...

When we started I got a useless upgrade to my leader (Vengeful, which wouldn't be bad if we DIDN'T STOPPED PLAYING BEFORE WINTER on the first two games)that I got to use maybe once in the entire campaign, and I yet to add ANY upgrade to my province or my leader. I completely failed to capture a single milestone! The ONE time I was in a position to do it (explore a 6) I had everything line up, my best Adviser, both ships, an upgrade... and I rolled like...1 or 2 and ship sank.

And that was it. No more chances, someone else swooped in and got it after me.

I've been completely unable to leverage my MASSIVE catch up bonus into anything worthwhile. Those catch up bonus feel ridiculously weak and I don't feel like they help at all. And in fact the moment I would pull ahead I'd be left with no advantages at all while the current prince Harvests at 14 now!

And you know that milestone for sinking the first ship? First game it's available, the second player comes into my harbor and sink my ship, gets the milestone with the glory boost and now there's an ominous x mark right in my frickin' harbor! I had no action to spare at all during the game to repair that second ship.

And speaking of milestone... WHY is there a milestone for first sunk ship but not for first discovered island?! Seriously you add a new rule and give a reward for completing it but this other rule? Nope. You get nothing.


Now I do have a Research card that can let me unlock one of the new milestone that was in box 2! But there needs to be four Colonies before I can go for it... and we saw that exploring those super high level skull sites can lead to some massive boost in gold (FIFTY IN ONE SHOT!) and there's a milestone for having tons of cash, so I'm thinking I might want to spend some time investing in Research cards and get to one of those sites... but again there's a guy who got a Research 2 bonus and spent most of today's game getting a ton of research cards. I think he went through half the deck! He's the one who did that Skull site and got 50 golds in one shot. He's probably gonna pull it again next time. Should I instead try to get a colony going? I still only have my starting hold.

In the end I don't know if I really enjoy this game. I feel like no matter what I do it ammounts to nothing, and the only reason I keep playing is I enjoy hanging out with my friends. I think I enjoy seeing the others compete with each other more than playing it myself because of how HOPELESS I feel.


So any words of wisdom?
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Magnus Magnissimus Maximus
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Well, being super opporunistic, trying to deduce what milestones the other provinces are going for and avoid those seems to be the name of the game. The game is swingy snd can feel unfair if you constantly get beaten to the low hanging fruit. The grey player in our playgroup (who got the same, quite useless appellation as you) was 20p behind after game 2, in which I sunk his ship in the first round, and was feeling quite despondent. But he came back in game 3, managed to convert his starting bonus into grabbing a high paying milestone and won the game. It helps for the overall enjoyment in our group that noone are playing particularly aggressively, and we are 3 players.

I greatly enjoy the game, but not for being any kind of masterfully crafted clockwork euro. I enjoy the randomness and am not very bothered who wins or not. Of course, that is easy for me to say as I am currently leading in overall glory.
 
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Vince Alvarez
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I feel like you may have been getting some rules wrong.

Undrave wrote:
I've been in last place all the way through...And you know that milestone for sinking the first ship? First game it's available, the second player comes into my harbor and sink my ship, gets the milestone with the glory boost and now there's an ominous x mark right in my frickin' harbor!


If you have been in last place, you should be assigned the astrolabe and event deck and be going first during the first year. That is not to say that you still wouldn't have been sunk, but it is a benefit to going first, you get first shot at advisers and at milestones.

Also it is pretty hard to sink someone in their harbor while both of their ships are there. You'd need to remove a minimum 5 dice before even considering enmity (one for your support ship, one for you controlling the region, and at least three for the garrison of your ships, either the highest sail or raid—and if you've upgraded raid or sail then you'd remove even more dice); and if you are in last place you should be starting the game with one enmity from top 2/3 players (depending how many people you're playing with) so that enmity would remove even more dice. If you had permanent enmity markers of theirs—which if they have been picking on you then you should—then you'd remove more. Very hard in my opinion to score the 3 successes required to sink a ship when you are removing 5-7 dice from the pool. The defender also gets to pick which ship is the target of the raid, so pick your ship with the highest raid/sail value to remove the most dice possible.

Undrave wrote:
there's a milestone for having tons of cash, so I'm thinking I might want to spend some time investing in Research cards and get to one of those sites...Should I instead try to get a colony going? I still only have my starting hold.


A lot of different strategies here that don't really build on each other. Aside from the one that you already have, since research cards are public and your buddy has already bought a lot of them you should know that research cards are going to give you an extra successes (or 2 at specific sites) in one way or another, but they are quite random. You pay 3 gold for a single research card that might give you 1/2 successes. Not sure that is worth it unless you are playing the long game on exploring those high defense sites.

My advice would be to focus on one milestone at a time. If you want the milestone for having 60 gold in your vault then take your beginning bonuses as mostly cash and keep an advisor that helps you get that milestone, remembering that as last place you go first and get first shot at paying goods and what not. That's a great milestone, because now you have 60 gold and can buy a ridiculous treasure or a bunch of upgrades/buildings.

You also get that one enmity token from the people ahead of you. That token gives you an extra die when you target them (only tokens and not permanent stickers give you an offensive bonus). So raid their provinces. If you raid their treasure room that is a minimum 3 glory swing (+1 for your successful raid, +? for the value of the treasure you plunder, they get -? for the value of the treasure you plunder. You'll need five successes and will leave 5 tokens, but if they have a juicy treasure take it.


Undrave wrote:
The only reason I keep playing is I enjoy hanging out with my friends.


Make this a bigger part of the game night and you'll have more fun. Put on the Pirates of the Caribbean soundtrack or something and talk like a pirate.
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David desJardins
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Undrave wrote:
I feel like this game is filled with options presented as equivalents to one another but in actuality they are not.


Yes. That only gets worse.

Quote:
Now I do have a Research card that can let me unlock one of the new milestone that was in box 2! But there needs to be four Colonies before I can go for it...


I have more bad news, you do know that your research cards are face up in your treasure room and someone else can come in and raid and take them from you? That would probably be the icing on the cake.
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Dave Martin
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heyvince wrote:
I feel like you may have been getting some rules wrong.

Undrave wrote:
I've been in last place all the way through...And you know that milestone for sinking the first ship? First game it's available, the second player comes into my harbor and sink my ship, gets the milestone with the glory boost and now there's an ominous x mark right in my frickin' harbor!


If you have been in last place, you should be assigned the astrolabe and event deck and be going first during the first year. That is not to say that you still wouldn't have been sunk, but it is a benefit to going first, you get first shot at advisers and at milestones.

Also it is pretty hard to sink someone in their harbor while both of their ships are there. You'd need to remove a minimum 5 dice before even considering enmity (one for your support ship, one for you controlling the region, and at least three for the garrison of your ships, either the highest sail or raid—and if you've upgraded raid or sail then you'd remove even more dice); and if you are in last place you should be starting the game with one enmity from top 2/3 players (depending how many people you're playing with) so that enmity would remove even more dice. If you had permanent enmity markers of theirs—which if they have been picking on you then you should—then you'd remove more. Very hard in my opinion to score the 3 successes required to sink a ship when you are removing 5-7 dice from the pool. The defender also gets to pick which ship is the target of the raid, so pick your ship with the highest raid/sail value to remove the most dice possible.



I did go first, but I didn't invest anything in raid in the previous two games, and one or two of the other players already had a ship with maxed out raid! That would be way too many dice off.

So on my first turn of that game I used my starting bonus and an adviser to grab the +2 to explore upgrade for my small ship, which had 4 Sail and 4 Explore and I sent it off on its own with the goal of exploring an island.

In that game I started with an adviser that had a bonus to Explore AND could let me reroll an endeavour. The adviser I bought to give me a cheaper Upgrade also let me get a free Adviser nd I got one that not only gives a boost to explore again but allowed me to refresh another advisor!

I thought I was in good position...

Second player off the game grabs a Raid +4 or something stupid on an Advisor and comes in my harbor with both their ship. I don't have enmity from them since they were second to last and my big ship has no upgrade. That's how they got that milestone.

Once again, it feels like options in this game are simply not equal and me not investing in Raid and not alternating which ship to improve in the previous game was a super big mistake.
 
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Dave Martin
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DaviddesJ wrote:


Quote:
Now I do have a Research card that can let me unlock one of the new milestone that was in box 2! But there needs to be four Colonies before I can go for it...


I have more bad news, you do know that your research cards are face up in your treasure room and someone else can come in and raid and take them from you? That would probably be the icing on the cake.


Believe me, I know. But the Treasure Room needs FIVE enmity token (and five success) to be targetted, and at this point, due to being in last place, I have enmity stickers from every other player. So I'm relatively confident I won't be attacked in my home province.

I might still get a gun tower for the Glory though.
 
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Greg Filpus
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Undrave wrote:
Once again, it feels like options in this game are simply not equal and me not investing in Raid and not alternating which ship to improve in the previous game was a super big mistake.


I agree that not all the options are equal at any given moment, but as stuff unlocks the balance between them can change. Also, early in the campaign the ship improvements you've commit to aren't too big compared to what you can do in an individual game with upgrades, structures, and advisors. If you want to focus on raiding or moving goods or something for a game, you still can.
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David desJardins
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Undrave wrote:
I thought I was in good position...

Second player off the game grabs a Raid +4 or something stupid on an Advisor and comes in my harbor with both their ship. I don't have enmity from them since they were second to last and my big ship has no upgrade. That's how they got that milestone.


It seems like you're just asking to lose with this kind of play. You could see the milestone was in play and that the next player(s) would be tempted to attack you if you made it easy for them, right? Did you think about keeping your ships together and maybe buying an upgrade that would increase your defense against raiding? Did you think about maybe taking the Raid +4 advisor yourself, even if you weren't going to use it right away, so that someone else wouldn't grab it to attack with?

I think sometimes players go on tilt and make things worse for themselves. What you're describing that happened to you isn't something the game did to you, it's something you did to yourself.
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Dave Martin
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So next game I'm gonna start with 33 gold... should I just aim to make money and getting that milestone that ask... I think 60 gold? But doing merchant actions takes FOREVER (and is kinda boring)... and I'd need to set my vault back to boost my hold. And there is still the risk of my opponent stealing my loot to stop me from getting it Another posibility would be to go and start raiding mines, but again I might need more raid from upgrades...

Maybe I need to boost my hold and get a colony? And make it easier on myself to get that 'Fable Reborn' milestone?

Or do I keep focusing on explore and try to find the 'Tomb of the Ancient'? Plus some of the high rating sites may end up giving me TONS of money anyway.


DaviddesJ wrote:
Undrave wrote:
I thought I was in good position...

Second player off the game grabs a Raid +4 or something stupid on an Advisor and comes in my harbor with both their ship. I don't have enmity from them since they were second to last and my big ship has no upgrade. That's how they got that milestone.


It seems like you're just asking to lose with this kind of play. You could see the milestone was in play and that the next player(s) would be tempted to attack you if you made it easy for them, right? Did you think about keeping your ships together and maybe buying an upgrade that would increase your defense against raiding? Did you think about maybe taking the Raid +4 advisor yourself, even if you weren't going to use it right away, so that someone else wouldn't grab it to attack with?

I think sometimes players go on tilt and make things worse for themselves. What you're describing that happened to you isn't something the game did to you, it's something you did to yourself.


Yeah I know on that one. What else was I going to do though? Just turtle around at a sail of 2 all game long and not get anything done for fear of that one milestone?


I'm just really bothered that there was a reward for that but not for venturing and discovering a new island. I think it skews the value of actions toward Raiding.

And maybe I do suck at this game. It's possible. I'm just... I'm just not that good at anticipating and planning, I'm much better at reacting and adapting in the short term.
 
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The game remains very dynamic in point total throughout the campaign.

16 points behind? That's nothing! Our guy who had lingered in distant last place from the beginning -- literally at one point he was 60 points behind the leader, yep not 16 but 60 -- has been doing very well in the past few games and is now only 5 points behind.

And this is without the influence of any milestones -- for the past four games we've had only one big milestone left (that we know of) and no one has been able to achieve it yet.

Our prince meanwhile is extremely grumpy as he hasn't actually won in a while but hasn't quite been knocked out of the top spot. This is largely because our duchess is very good at remaining duchess -- deliberately sinking a ship when she saw this last game was about to end in order lose the glory of its upgrades and land once again exactly one point behind the prince in cumulative glory. We all agree that she is a terrible person.

Anyway the point is that while it's very easy to feel sulky after a couple of bad games -- or several bad games, or in my case all of them -- it's a mistake to count yourself out. When the per-game glory reaches the max of 24, making up a deficit of 16 points in a single game is perfectly achievable.
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Dave Martin
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Hexprone wrote:
The game remains very dynamic in point total throughout the campaign.

16 points behind? That's nothing! Our guy who had lingered in distant last place from the beginning -- literally at one point he was 60 points behind the leader, yep not 16 but 60 -- has been doing very well in the past few games and is now only 5 points behind.

And this is without the influence of any milestones -- for the past four games we've had only one big milestone left (that we know of) and no one has been able to achieve it yet.

Our prince meanwhile is extremely grumpy as he hasn't actually won in a while but hasn't quite been knocked out of the top spot. This is largely because our duchess is very good at remaining duchess -- deliberately sinking a ship when she saw this last game was about to end in order lose the glory of its upgrades and land once again exactly one point behind the prince in cumulative glory. We all agree that she is a terrible person.

Anyway the point is that while it's very easy to feel sulky after a couple of bad games -- or several bad games, or in my case all of them -- it's a mistake to count yourself out. When the per-game glory reaches the max of 24, making up a deficit of 16 points in a single game is perfectly achievable.


Thanks for the pep talk. I guess I'll give it a few more games before I truly decide if it's not for me or not.

It's clear at this point that I'm the worse player at the table, so the question is do I really want to do the whole uphill battle against those particular odds? Do I want to be constantly struggling with only fleeting bonuses? And then spend all that time between turns waiting for four other players who constantly seem to pull ahead of me without effort and without being screwed by dice rolls despite rolling ALL THE TIME for raids?!

Honestly I think I might get way too salty over bad dice rolls (but strangely enough bad pulls from a deck don't feel as bad? I don't know why) and that might actually affect my opinion of the game. EVERY time I went for big plays that might net me a good reward I roll poorly, and if I play too conservatively I can't get big gains.

I just feel like the catch up mechanic don't do much for me. Like if I were to do well next game, but only and end it in second place, I would be starting the next game in WORSE position because I would have less catch up bonus but STILL no upgrade to ANYTHING. And considering how utterly useless 'Vengeful' is at this point I might as well have no title...

Anyway I guess I'll try to remain hopeful next time and take a moment to take stock of everybody else's options and what they might be able to accomplish before I decide on what to focus on.
 
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Greg Filpus
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Undrave wrote:
So next game I'm gonna start with 33 gold... should I just aim to make money and getting that milestone that ask... I think 60 gold? But doing merchant actions takes FOREVER (and is kinda boring)... and I'd need to set my vault back to boost my hold. And there is still the risk of my opponent stealing my loot to stop me from getting it Another posibility would be to go and start raiding mines, but again I might need more raid from upgrades...


In the first few games I also found myself in last place with no milestones or wins, and part of how I got there was underestimating the power of the merchant actions when buffed by advisor or building abilities. +2 Buy advisors are relatively common, and you're effectively getting two actions for the price of one. I got the "earn 30 gold in one turn from selling" milestone by only selling three goods, with +2/good from a Marketplace and +3 from an advisor ability.

(That game was basically turn 1, use a +2 Buy advisor to buy four goods. Turn 2, take the goods back and use one of them to buy a Marketplace. Turn 3, use a +1 Sell and +3 gold/good advisor to sell them for 33 and claim the milestone. It required a pretty specific combo of advisors to make it work, but looking for those combos is an important part of the game.)
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Dave Martin
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GregF wrote:
Undrave wrote:
So next game I'm gonna start with 33 gold... should I just aim to make money and getting that milestone that ask... I think 60 gold? But doing merchant actions takes FOREVER (and is kinda boring)... and I'd need to set my vault back to boost my hold. And there is still the risk of my opponent stealing my loot to stop me from getting it Another posibility would be to go and start raiding mines, but again I might need more raid from upgrades...


In the first few games I also found myself in last place with no milestones or wins, and part of how I got there was underestimating the power of the merchant actions when buffed by advisor or building abilities. +2 Buy advisors are relatively common, and you're effectively getting two actions for the price of one. I got the "earn 30 gold in one turn from selling" milestone by only selling three goods, with +2/good from a Marketplace and +3 from an advisor ability.

(That game was basically turn 1, use a +2 Buy advisor to buy four goods. Turn 2, take the goods back and use one of them to buy a Marketplace. Turn 3, use a +1 Sell and +3 gold/good advisor to sell them for 33 and claim the milestone. It required a pretty specific combo of advisors to make it work, but looking for those combos is an important part of the game.)


I'll keep an eye out for it then.
 
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I was coming here to post a very similar topic. We are 3 games in, plus the prologue so total 4 games, and I have only been playing the role of a merchant so not raiding or exploring. Focusing all my attention at purchasing goods, selling them and getting treasures. I have been in last place each game, the other 3 players are exploring and raiding. One other player just raids and he is 16 points ahead of myself and always is at the top of the glory or wins.

I feel, at this point in the game, there is no reason to do anything with goods. No other player even cares about them and just continues to build their ship to explore or raid. I have invested in hold and sail so far to increase the amount of goods I can buy and sell. I feel that I am never going to catch up by doing this. I'm upset by this because I feel this game should have other possibilities to win other than raiding or exploring. Why allow the purchase of goods and build a set of rules and even extras to increase trade if there is no reason? Again, only 3 games in but I feel that I'm going to fall further and further behind by doing this, and I'm OK with it as long as I'm having some fun but frustrated as I also feel lured into thinking this is a possible way to play and win when so far it's left me in the cold.
 
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Nathanaël Dufour
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[q="Undrave"] Do I want to be constantly struggling with only fleeting bonuses? And then spend all that time between turns waiting for four other players who constantly seem to pull ahead of me without effort and without being screwed by dice rolls despite rolling ALL THE TIME for raids?!

I've been raiding a lot during our first few games. Now I have enmity stickers everywhere and it's gotten a lot harder. Meanwhile, my girlfriend which was really frustrated our first 2 games (I did to her what other players did to you) has been exploring a lot and caught up.

Quote:
And considering how utterly useless 'Vengeful' is at this point I might as well have no title...

Anyway I guess I'll try to remain hopeful next time and take a moment to take stock of everybody else's options and what they might be able to accomplish before I decide on what to focus on.


You might want to consider attacking other players :

as Lord or Baron, you start the game with enmity tokens from the Prince and Duke. While their ships might have been improved for battle, thair province garrison might not.

In that case, since you start with a ton of gold, start next game improving your ship ( Something like "Durable" or "Fearless" if you don't want to tip them off, or something that increases your pillage otherwise)and building a port.

Then next turn, buy an advisor that helps you pillage, then attack someone's harbor now that their ships are gone.

The Vengeful will be useful indeed, and your permanent enmity sticker will protect you from payback.
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HitPointsGaming wrote:
Focusing all my attention at purchasing goods, selling them and getting treasures.


I had a similar frustration early on - in the long run, having money is helpful, but the fact is that trading just isn't as fun as exploring or raiding, so you do feel left out of things if you end up being the economic guy at the table.

However, I don't know that focusing on treasures is the smartest way to play the economic game. The better economic payoff is in building and upgrading.

Even just in terms of raw point value, a $10 structure is exactly as good as a $10 treasure. And of course the structure comes with benefits while the treasure just sits there and does nothing.

The higher cost structures still give you just one glory while the treasures give more, but holy cow, $52 could be your ticket to a lot more than four glory if you use it for some choice upgrades rather than just leaving it sitting in your treasure room where it can be raided away from you -- together with all its glory, ouch -- at any time. Glory from endeavors can't be raided away.

Further, because you buy treasures earlier in the turn than you choose an active advisor, you can't make use of the guys that give an extra discount from resources when buying treasures -- and using those advisors is a huge money-saver.

I wouldn't say treasures are completely pointless. They're great for last-minute ninja glory when you see the game is about to end (and no one will have time to steal them from you). Or if someone nabs that expensive structure before you and you've got $40 sitting around, sure, pick up a treasure. But if there's one dead-end strategy in Seafall, I think focusing on treasures is it.

And again, don't freak out too much about your overall points. Pretty soon, games are going to be played for double the points you're playing for now. Rankings can and do shift a lot.
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Osuniev wrote:
The Vengeful will be useful indeed


Oh yes it will. But vengeance must be patient.

Our Vengeful guy is the player who sat in last place for most of the campaign -- and then made up a 60-point deficit over the course of four games and is now nipping the heels of the prince.
 
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heyvince wrote:
[perfectly reasonable things]


Wait, what? [total misreading of what HeyVince was even talking about followed]

[edit: sorry, poor forum etiquette -- three posts in a row! I should've just edited one.]

[edit again: and also, what I was saying wasn't relevant anyway, so my repeat post was completely pointless. Stop typing, Hexprone!]
 
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Vince Alvarez
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Hexprone wrote:
heyvince wrote:
Also it is pretty hard to sink someone in their harbor while both of their ships are there. You'd need to remove a minimum 5 dice before even considering enmity (one for your support ship, one for you controlling the region, and at least three for the garrison of your ships, either the highest sail or raid—and if you've upgraded raid or sail then you'd remove even more dice)


Wait, what? If this is right, my group's been doing it wrong the entire time, but I don't think this is right. This is from the pdf rules:

holy writ wrote:
Defending ships in the region. Each ship is considered a support ship and usually removes one die unless it has an upgrade or ability that allows it to remove more.


I don't think you get the ships' sail/raid garrison as well -- the only additional bonus I can think of would be from that "add one extra die as a support ship" upgrade.

[edit: sorry, poor forum etiquette -- three posts in a row! I should've just edited one.]


Those are the rules for support ships during regular province raids, not raiding the ships themselves. The PDF won't include the stickers that add rules for raiding ships. Read the rules for raiding a ship. Just like raiding an island site, ships have a defense (hold value) and a garrison (either raid or sail, defender's choice). Additionally, if the defender controls the area you'd remove one extra die (or add a die if the attacker controls it), your extra ship still subtracts at least one die, and finally any enmity (tokens and permanent) will remove additional dice. If both ships are in the same region the defender gets to choose the flagship (meaning which hold/raid/sail values will be used to determine the above).

After removing dice the attacker needs a number of successes equal to the hold value and can then assigne those successes to deal damage or plunder goods. So ships with starting hold values need at least three successes to sink. And the defender would then receive three enmity.
 
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Greg Filpus
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Hexprone wrote:
Even just in terms of raw point value, a $10 structure is exactly as good as a $10 treasure. And of course the structure comes with benefits while the treasure just sits there and does nothing.


A $10 treasure doesn't cost an action or require you to select Builder's Guild, while a $10 ship upgrade or building does. That's really what you're trading for the benefit.

But yeah, we usually see people buying treasures near the end of the game, when they have a little extra gold and want to get points on top of their actions.
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GregF wrote:
A $10 treasure doesn't cost an action or require you to select Builder's Guild, while a $10 ship upgrade or building does.


Sure, and a build action doesn't cost you a chance at an advisor. Much more important at the outset, less so later in the game and/or year.
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Becq Starforged
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Cerritos
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GregF wrote:
Hexprone wrote:
Even just in terms of raw point value, a $10 structure is exactly as good as a $10 treasure. And of course the structure comes with benefits while the treasure just sits there and does nothing.


A $10 treasure doesn't cost an action or require you to select Builder's Guild, while a $10 ship upgrade or building does. That's really what you're trading for the benefit.

But yeah, we usually see people buying treasures near the end of the game, when they have a little extra gold and want to get points on top of their actions.

Buying the treasure does "use up" you opportunity to hire an advisor, though. So there is that additional trade-off.

To the OP, I'd just like to stress that the campaign is not over yet. I went from 11 glory behind the leader to 1 glory behind the leader in a single game (then lost a bit of ground in the next game).

As to exploring ... how can you say that raiding is so clearly better when (Box 2 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
one of your opponents manage to get 50 gold from a single explore)? Keep in mind that 50 gold would have been almost enough to get him that 60 gold milestone, THEN enough to buy some nice treasures for extra glory.

That amount of glory blows away the "2 glory" that you mentioned someone got from raiding...

One last note regarding getting picked on ... there are limits to how much that can happen. Remember that enmity turns into permanent stickers, and those stickers protect everything you control. If a particular player is continually raiding you, then they will quickly have -6 dice against you anywhere they raid you. You might also consider aggressive diplomacy. For example, when your raid-heavy opponent is looking for a target, point to that guy who just got a 50 gold windfall, or the guy who is about to win (yet again), or something along those lines...
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Becq wrote:
As to exploring ... how can you say that raiding is so clearly better when ...


Yeah, this was completely reversed at our table. Our raider sat in dead last for ten games before his style started paying off at all (when it paid off big) and our explorer zoomed out ahead in the mid-game and stayed there until we ran out of...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
tombs


...and he kind of lost interest.

But I gotta say, we're at game 15 now, and permanent enmity is still nothing. Our big raider is "vengeful", which helps him, but even so it seems out of balance that there are so few active enmity stickers on the board. None of us have ever had any trouble rolling enmity away, either as tokens or even as stickers over the course of a couple of more peaceful games.
 
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Osuniev wrote:
[q="Undrave"] Do I want to be constantly struggling with only fleeting bonuses? And then spend all that time between turns waiting for four other players who constantly seem to pull ahead of me without effort and without being screwed by dice rolls despite rolling ALL THE TIME for raids?!

I've been raiding a lot during our first few games. Now I have enmity stickers everywhere and it's gotten a lot harder. Meanwhile, my girlfriend which was really frustrated our first 2 games (I did to her what other players did to you) has been exploring a lot and caught up.

Quote:
And considering how utterly useless 'Vengeful' is at this point I might as well have no title...

Anyway I guess I'll try to remain hopeful next time and take a moment to take stock of everybody else's options and what they might be able to accomplish before I decide on what to focus on.


You might want to consider attacking other players :

as Lord or Baron, you start the game with enmity tokens from the Prince and Duke. While their ships might have been improved for battle, thair province garrison might not.

In that case, since you start with a ton of gold, start next game improving your ship ( Something like "Durable" or "Fearless" if you don't want to tip them off, or something that increases your pillage otherwise)and building a port.

Then next turn, buy an advisor that helps you pillage, then attack someone's harbor now that their ships are gone.

The Vengeful will be useful indeed, and your permanent enmity sticker will protect you from payback.


I can't even do that... because the other players are too agressive and already like two players have increased their province's garisson, the guy in lead has fields at 6 and 8 (so I'd need at LEAST three success to take anything from his province) and I CAN'T buy an advisor next turn to be agressive, because there WON'T be an advisor to buy.

We're playing with 5 players and one of the guy has the ability to buy two advisors. There's usually no advisor left by the time the turn goes back to the Prince. Only thing I can do is wait for Winter... and even there half the time I'm one of the first few guys to score points and then the astrolabe ends up being passed to someone at Winter and I end up in last place and I get screwed in a different way... oy vey...

Hexprone wrote:


But I gotta say, we're at game 15 now, and permanent enmity is still nothing. Our big raider is "vengeful", which helps him, but even so it seems out of balance that there are so few active enmity stickers on the board. None of us have ever had any trouble rolling enmity away, either as tokens or even as stickers over the course of a couple of more peaceful games.


As an aisde I don't think we understood that enmity stickers on the province also protected ships, so that's nice to know.

But yeah your home province has way too little Enmity sticker areas! Especially in a five player game! of course if they start raiding you they stand to lose glory for EVERY sticker they can't put down but that's still not that big of a deal if you're trailing and just lose your ship and the turns, ressources and glory from upgrades and maybe even the turn you took to get cargo!

Yes Explore has potential to net a ton of gold NOW but in the previous game? Raiding ports to steal upgrades was CLEARLY the superior strategy.

This game feels like some options are clearly superior at one point, but then are traps at others, and you basically need to figure it out on the fly all the time and THEN plan like three turns ahead or your get screwed...I guess it's just not the style of guy that really agrees with me...
 
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David desJardins
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Undrave wrote:
We're playing with 5 players and one of the guy has the ability to buy two advisors. There's usually no advisor left by the time the turn goes back to the Prince.


There are always 5 advisors available in the forum. If you're playing that wrong, that's a BIG mistake.
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