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Robin Vermeersch
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Good day to you all,

I'm not sure whether I should be placing this in the Rules forum or General, but I figured I'd place it here as it contains all sorts of questions.

We were starting a campaign with The Hideout as we figured it'd be a nice thing to have later on in the campaign. A few questions arose that led to genuine confusion as to how we should continue. We ended up making a ruling as the discussions about rules would be longer than the playtime itself (I'm sure we've all been there ). I wrote them down and would like to get an answer to the following questions, grouped by map:

Map H1 (Hideout):

- Usually, spaces that cannot be entered are marked with a white 'X'. Now, we assumed that there were walls all around (as they were drawn on the map) and we could only enter the spaces marked with the 5 dots (5 AP) to get into the hideout. Is this correct?

- We assumed that the spaces with a wooden arc were the doors mentioned in the setup sheet, but were not entirely certain as they were not marked with the symbols shown in the rulebook ((p 25). Is this correct?

We however figured this scenario was a bit on the unforgiving side and we really wanted to finish the game we started at Essen Spiel, so we abandoned this pretty quickly and went on to Witches Grotto.

Map W1 (Witches Grotto):

- During the demo at Essen, we were told we would need to save Aisha and then (and only then) she would be a playable hero for the rest of the campaign. The goal of the scenario, however, is that we'd need to stand adjacent to her and we'd win, whether she was dead or alive. Question is now, was it just a nice, little thematic enhancement that we were shown during the demo at Essen, that she must be alive for us to 'gain' her as a campaign hero, or do we have her from the start, even for just the base campaign? Or is that something to be houseruled?

- Where does Aisha spawn exactly? It isn't mentioned anywhere in the scenario setup sheet. We spawned her on O15, as it seemed the most appropriate (and my brother remembered it from the Essen demo), but we'd like to get an official answer to this.

- Should a boneworm spawn next to her, how do we track her HP? Just by using her character sheet or does she have adjusted stats? Can we use her the way we use Innkeeper Burron in the Hideout (does she move, attack, defend,...)?

- Where do cultists spawn, as we could not find any trapdoor (same for W2)? I'm aware the rules say you should spawn what you can, and that if it's not possible to spawn anything, it should remain in the pool. We spawned insectoids following the above rules, but were wondering 'why the heck are there any Guards in the spawn pools?' We spawned them on K2, as it seemed thematically appropriate.

- What's up with the skiff? It can be used to travel 3 spaces with, but is this only for cultists or also for heroes? The reason why we ask, is that in scenario W2 the skiff (or rowboat) makes a return, and the wording there seems to suggest only acolytes can use this boat. We ruled that we could use it, killing the two acolytes on baord and move two heroes 3 spaces along the water (and along the water only).


General question:

- If I make an attack with a Fire Torrent from the mage, can I boost it with attack cards or special cards? The reason I'm asking, is that while it's a 'Special' card, it assumes making a +4 attack, and it was not printed in red, so to my logic we could boost it with attack (like the Elven Dagger card, which gives +3 attack and a return to hand if it deals damage). My brother argument:

'It's a 'Special' card, so you boost it with 'Special' numeric values. And also, making a Fire spell stronger when a mage has a sword in hand, doesn't really make sense does it?' I had no counterargument to that.

We solved it by only playing numeric cards that could boost both values. But could I have used my Elven Dagger card to boost my Attack for the Fire Torrent Area of Attack?


I'm sorry for the longer post, but I felt these were genuine things that were a bit in the way of us enjoying the game. Once we put it to rest and made rulings on the fly, the game flowed alot smoother and we were totally into it, planning to play it again next week!

Awesome job, designers, cannot wait for the expansions!

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David Hladky
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You are right. I checked the Aisha deployment and it is not defined at all. It is apparent error. Good finding!

I understand Aisha to be a playable character that counts to the heroes count. All rules for the killed heroes apply here. You can win a scenario even if some of the heroes fall including Aisha in W1. I personally would consider it a failure that early in the game and restart the scenario.

"Special actions" can only be enhanced by the cards with the arcane symbol and attacks (ranged or bash) can only be enhanced by cards with the fist symbols. I do not know what is on the elven dagger card though.

Note: please, next time split your questions to multiple threads. Other people may be looking for the same information and the thread topic may identify what they are looking for.
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Robin Vermeersch
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mrakomor wrote:
You are right. I checked the Aisha deployment and it is not defined at all. It is apparent error. Good finding!

I understand Aisha to be a playable character that counts to the heroes count. All rules for the killed heroes apply here. You can win a scenario even if some of the heroes fall including Aisha in W1. I personally would consider it a failure that early in the game and restart the scenario.

"Special actions" can only be enhanced by the cards with the arcane symbol and attacks (ranged or bash) can only be enhanced by cards with the fist symbols. I do not know what is on the elven dagger card though.

Note: please, next time split your questions to multiple threads. Other people may be looking for the same information and the thread topic may identify what they are looking for.


Thanks for your reply .

But during the first scenario, is she an NPC or considered a hero with her own peg on the rondel and everything?

I'll reword the question for the Fireball and Torrent of fire: is it considered a special ability or an attack?

And next time I'll keep it in mind for other questions
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Sorcerious wrote:
[q="mrakomor"]You are right. I checked the Aisha deployment and it is not defined at all. It is apparent error. Good finding!


Aisha should be at J2.

Quote:

I understand Aisha to be a playable character that counts to the heroes count. All rules for the killed heroes apply here. You can win a scenario even if some of the heroes fall including Aisha in W1. I personally would consider it a failure that early in the game and restart the scenario.


Yes, you're correct. Aisha is playable Hero with her cards, tokens and what not. And killing Aisha that early does constitute a failure that I'd not accept that early on campaign... but that's just me.

Quote:

I'll reword the question for the Fireball and Torrent of fire: is it considered a special ability or an attack?


Torrent of Fire is clearly SPECIAL ability. Yes, does make an attack. But it is special only ability. You can only use it while in special boost it only with special numbers, not with attack numbers.
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Robin Vermeersch
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Hello Timo

- Ok, noted for Aisha to spawn at J2. That does pose a problem with the start for W2,as there the heroes start on O14 (or range 2 from it), which is at the other end of the map...

- Is she considered to be a playable character in the first scenario? Or does she just stand there taking a beating? Do we, as a group, decide her actions or is she just a bag of meat?


Can you take a look at my other questions?

Thanks for the reply so far!
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Timo Multamäki
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Sorcerious wrote:
Hello Timo

- Ok, noted for Aisha to spawn at J2. That does pose a problem with the start for W2,as there the heroes start on O14 (or range 2 from it), which is at the other end of the map...

- Is she considered to be a playable character in the first scenario? Or does she just stand there taking a beating? Do we, as a group, decide her actions or is she just a bag of meat?


Can you take a look at my other questions?

Thanks for the reply so far!



I think I never said that rescuing Aisha is easy.
But it should be kept in mind that rescuing Aisha is W1. On W2 it's assumed that all Heroes (including Aisha) are at o14 or close by. In W1 Aisha is surely a playable Hero. You can either allocate her to a single player or play her as group hero, which ever suites your needs.

May I ask that you'd split other remaining questions to separate threads. It makes finding easier (not only to me, but to others, too). I am still here for few hours today, but latest tomorrow I'll (again) reply all questions (or at least try).
 
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Robin Vermeersch
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Eridis wrote:



I think I never said that rescuing Aisha is easy.
But it should be kept in mind that rescuing Aisha is W1. On W2 it's assumed that all Heroes (including Aisha) are at o14 or close by. In W1 Aisha is surely a playable Hero. You can either allocate her to a single player or play her as group hero, which ever suites your needs.

May I ask that you'd split other remaining questions to separate threads. It makes finding easier (not only to me, but to others, too). I am still here for few hours today, but latest tomorrow I'll (again) reply all questions (or at least try).


Hi Timo

Thanks for the reply, I have reworded this question a little as it is still not clear to me. The other questions have been answered, the ones that remain can be found via this link, as somehow I'm unable to create a thread that will actually show up on the Rules forum.

Thanks in advance
 
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I'd like to use this thread for another Hideout question, hope it's ok!

I am a little confused by the wording, that after finishing the Hideout scenarios it is available to the heroes "between CAMPAIGNS" - should it not read "between SCENARIOS"?

We are starting our first campaign soon and like the idea of returning to our safe haven between hard scenarios. Is it meant to be played that way?

Thanks all!
 
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Tristan Brunet
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I'm afraid you can't go back between scenarios. Each campaign in PM is a single dungeon delve.
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Oops! While I get that thematically (digging deeper into the dungeon means not be able to return to the surface), what use is it for? When the campaign is over, why would I want to trade items or rest?

We didn't start playing yet, so I am sorry if it becomes clearer while playing. Right now, I don't get the benefit of a hideout if we can't use it before the game is already over!

Thanks for your reply!
 
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David Hladky
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The rules describe it. Only between campaigns is correct. And in case of WG you must use the correct ending, otherwise you end up in AP.

Its usage is limited. But if you think about how many items can the characters carry, it is not a big issue.
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Thanks David!
What I still don't get, is how to use The Hideout. Sure, there are 5 or 6 cool scenarios, what alone makes it worth having it. But: What does "between campaigns" mean? We play a campaign, (hopefully) win it, go to the hideout for trading and healing, and then start the same campaign again (maybe now in hard mode or including the Witches Grotto for a bit of variety)? Basically, there is just one campaign at this moment, right?

And, even more important: when you enter the hideout after a campaign (and it is not taken back by the cultists), how do you trade and heal in the first place? Which merchant offers which items? How do we "trade" them? Do these items have to be taken out of the in-campaign-treasure-deck? How is healing applied at The Hideout? I read all the rules and skimmed over all scenarios (not to spoil myself), but I could not find anything on how to handle that.

Again, we just started our first game yesterday, so sorry if it may be a dumb question. I am sure all the answers are simple, but right now I do not have any clue.
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Well.

The idea of Hideout is that now you have three campaigns:
Abyssal Rift
Witch's grotto
and
Hideout

And more is to come. Hideout provides a place where your Heroes
can trade items, resurrect fallen comrades and such. This is not
available elsewhere - naturally you'll have to first liberate the
said Hideout for the services to be available.

So if you first play HO and the AR, at the end of AR you can go back to HO for trading. And then you can play WG. And again go to HO for trading, healing etc.

And then head for what ever future brings (at least Soul Spire is surely on sights).
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Thanks Timo!

Being just a PM:AR beginner, I did not realize that Witches Grotto is a campaign of its own. Very exited to read that more campaigns are coming!

Now, where can I get more info on how trading and healing at the hideout is played? I can't seem to find anything about that. Hope that nothing is missing from my box. Any clue?
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Fluidkarma wrote:
Thanks Timo!

Being just a PM:AR beginner, I did not realize that Witches Grotto is a campaign of its own. Very exited to read that more campaigns are coming!

Now, where can I get more info on how trading and healing at the hideout is played? I can't seem to find anything about that. Hope that nothing is missing from my box. Any clue?


This is explained in rulebook and in the Hideouts campaign sheet (A3 sheet).
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I have an A3 sheet (or, more precisely, an A4 four page folder). The title shows a fluff story about Neshilim, inside left describes the merchants (clothes and character), inside right shows a letter from Neshilim to Simma, back shows rules that say "..you'll be able to sell your treasures"... "you have to barter with what they have on offer, which may be treasures or healing or even resurrection services".

But who has what on offer, and how to the heroes trade or heal or resurrect?

It seems to be not explained at all. Sorry if I am missing something!
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Rulebook p. 33:

Traders
With this variant, your heroes meet a trader at the end of the campaign, when they return to the surface to rest and repair. You may sell your treasures to these traders for the coin value shown in the lower left corner of each treasure card.
The traders do not give you money in return—they instead barter services equal to the treasures’ value. You may purchase each service multiple times, as long as you have enough treasure to trade. Traders don’t make change, so try to match item value to service cost.

* Heal a Wound card in any hero’s deck—2 coins: Return that card to the Wound deck.
* Resurrect a dead hero—1 0 coins: The hero returns to full HP, but keeps any Wound cards in his deck.
* Remove a Curse from any hero’s deck—3 coins: Curses appear in expansions for
Perdition’s Mouth.
* Purchase simple treasures: If you have any Trader treasure cards T (planned for an
expansion), do not shuffle them into the treasure deck at the beginning of a scenario. Instead, the trader can sell you these treasures for twice the coin value on the card.

With Hideout you will get the Trader Treasure deck, marker with T. And description of each vendor is also included with their pictures on the sheet.
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Thanks a lot, that solves the issue.
I guess it got me confused that the instruction for trading at the Hideout is printed in the core game rulebook – would have expected it on the Hideout sheet for sure.

Very important to know that the Trader Treasures are not meant to be shuffled in the treasure deck, as we did. But having not gained a treasure by now, this is reversible and I'll sort them out before next play.

Then, everything is set now – time to clear the Hideout (or die trying).
Thanks again for your very fast replies!
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Fluidkarma wrote:
Thanks a lot, that solves the issue.
I guess it got me confused that the instruction for trading at the Hideout is printed in the core game rulebook – would have expected it on the Hideout sheet for sure.

Very important to know that the Trader Treasures are not meant to be shuffled in the treasure deck, as we did. But having not gained a treasure by now, this is reversible and I'll sort them out before next play.

Then, everything is set now – time to clear the Hideout (or die trying).
Thanks again for your very fast replies!


And do keep in mind that also Hideout scenarios are actually quite hard. If you find them TOO punishing, DO read the rulebook "Variants" section.
 
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Thanks for the hint!
Also, I have to correct myself: Most of the merchant-treasure-cards were NOT shuffled into the deck, because they had the "special treasure" print on their backs.

I skimmed over the cards and saw a star symbol, weapons, armor and potion.
So I guess the star stuff belongs to the gypsy woman, potions to the alchemist, weapon and armor to the armourer guy, and the healer and priest do their services (healing and resurrecting) without offering cards? Would that be correct?
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Fluidkarma wrote:
Thanks for the hint!
Also, I have to correct myself: Most of the merchant-treasure-cards were NOT shuffled into the deck, because they had the "special treasure" print on their backs.

I skimmed over the cards and saw a star symbol, weapons, armor and potion.
So I guess the star stuff belongs to the gypsy woman, potions to the alchemist, weapon and armor to the armourer guy, and the healer and priest do their services (healing and resurrecting) without offering cards? Would that be correct?


Yep.
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Sebastian Beck
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Can I shop after finishing the Hideout campaign but before starting the Abyssal Rift campaign?
 
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David Hladky
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Yes, this is exactly how it is meant to be used.
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Beckikaze wrote:
Can I shop after finishing the Hideout campaign but before starting the Abyssal Rift campaign?


Did you finish the Hideout campaign? I'd love to have some details.
 
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