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Subject: Definitive answer to money restrictions please! Tax rounded up or down? rss

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UA Darth
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I've read mixed messages about whether money is restricted. Do we start with 40 less gold in a 4 player game?

With the official event variant, during taxes, do you round up or down? In the third set, let's say you have 5 goods, do you pay 2 or 1?

Thanks!
 
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Kilo Force
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If you wanted an official answer, you would need to contact one of the publishers or the game designer.

Although I would be very interested to find out if money is limited, or unlimited.
 
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Rob Singleton
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shadow9d9 wrote:


With the official event variant, during taxes, do you round up or down? In the third set, let's say you have 5 goods, do you pay 2 or 1?

Thanks!


Round down.
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Dan Web
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I've only heard that money is limited but many choose to play with unlimited money.

I agree that you round down so in your example you would pay 1, not 2
 
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Kilo Force
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danweb wrote:
I've only heard that money is limited but many choose to play with unlimited money.


Limited by player counts, like the other resources, or just limited to what comes with the box? The Deluxe edition comes with additional coins, for the 5th player, so can those be played with 2-4 players?
 
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Chris Burgess
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According to the rule book (P21):

"When this happens, you can play the corresponding actions again. When there are not enough coins in the
supply (temporarily), players cannot receive coins (at the moment).
"

Coins are limited, but not adjusted for player counts (no mention that i can find for removing coins during setup).
 
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Peter Mulholland
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TheMonkeyBear wrote:
According to the rule book (P21):

"When this happens, you can play the corresponding actions again. When there are not enough coins in the
supply (temporarily), players cannot receive coins (at the moment).
"

Coins are limited, but not adjusted for player counts (no mention that i can find for removing coins during setup).


The way it says "at the moment" almost implies that you can then take the coins when they become available. Weird.

Either way I'm going to play that they are not limited as it seems silly to restrict them.
 
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Kilo Force
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TheMonkeyBear wrote:
According to the rule book (P21):
"When this happens, you can play the corresponding actions again. When there are not enough coins in the
supply (temporarily), players cannot receive coins (at the moment).
"
Coins are limited, but not adjusted for player counts (no mention that i can find for removing coins during setup).


Fair enough, so coins are limited to what is in the supply, but the rulebook also lists fewer coin contents than what are available with the 5th player addition. So with the 5th player additional, can you legally use all of the new coins with any player count?

Basically, what I really want to know is if coins are limited for game balance or to just avoid proxy items. If the rule is just there to avoid using proxy items, our group will easily ignore that. If the rule is there for player balance, then we are curious why it doesn't change by player count.
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giovanni ciampi
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There is another related problem. With the (official) variant rule for events (the ones that multiply x 3,2,1 the quantity of money to receive or to lose depending by the event) money depletion happens way faster. It's clear that the base quantity of money was not designed for that variant.

For me, it's reasonable for money to be limited, simply because it does not sound fair for goods to be instead limited and situationally pickable. But, still, there should be some official response about those questions, even if it's pretty clear (from the rules) that the amount of money IS infact limited.
 
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Peter Mulholland
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Sarchiapon wrote:
For me, it's reasonable for money to be limited, simply because it does not sound fair for goods to be instead limited and situationally pickable.


Funny because I look at this a different way. To me it makes sense for money to be unlimited and goods to be limited. Reason being in real life money is unlimited, you don't get turned away from the bank because they have run out of coins. But vegetables and cheese are limited, turn up to the market too late and there won't be anything left.
 
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giovanni ciampi
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PeterM2158 wrote:
Sarchiapon wrote:
For me, it's reasonable for money to be limited, simply because it does not sound fair for goods to be instead limited and situationally pickable.


Funny because I look at this a different way. To me it makes sense for money to be unlimited and goods to be limited. Reason being in real life money is unlimited, you don't get turned away from the bank because they have run out of coins. But vegetables and cheese are limited, turn up to the market too late and there won't be anything left.


Ok, but i was talking about game balance, not it's plausibility. With unlimited money, any source of points that you gain through money is always more reliable when confronted with citizen tokens and goods. With limited money, it may not. It's not that easy to deplete all the money, expecially if we just have to add the extra coins for 5th player as a general rule and regardless of the actual number of players, but still, money depletion it's a possibility. We need a definitive word about that.
 
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Peter Mulholland
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Sarchiapon wrote:
PeterM2158 wrote:
Sarchiapon wrote:
For me, it's reasonable for money to be limited, simply because it does not sound fair for goods to be instead limited and situationally pickable.


Funny because I look at this a different way. To me it makes sense for money to be unlimited and goods to be limited. Reason being in real life money is unlimited, you don't get turned away from the bank because they have run out of coins. But vegetables and cheese are limited, turn up to the market too late and there won't be anything left.


Ok, but i was talking about game balance, not it's plausibility. With unlimited money, any source of points that you gain through money is always more reliable when confronted with citizen tokens and good. With limited money, it may not. It's not that easy to deplete all the money, expecially if we just have to add the extra coins for 5th player as a general rule and regardless of the actual number of players, but still, money depletion it's a possibility. We need a definitive word about that.


Oh I see what you mean my apologies.
 
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Viktor Karlsson Mantel
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Does the game break if play with unlimited coins?

Planning to add all extra money from invasion expansion.
 
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Kilo Force
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I have yet to play this game where we actually hit the coin limits, so this discussion is mostly academic anyway.

I think the reason this question gets asked frequently is the rules already have provisions for limiting other resources for 2, 3 and 4 players, but nothing for coin counts for 2, 3 and 4 players. So, if there is coin counts for balance between 4 and 5 players, it would logically follow there should be coin counts for balance between 2, 3 and 4 players too. If there isn't coins for 2, 3 and 4 players, then the coin count for balancing 4 and 5 players seems completely arbitrary and not really for balance.

Limits on currency are just silly. I mean come on, what fiat economy has an achievable limit on currency? I can't think of any other game where currency is limited, where there aren't provisions for using proxies if you run out. Currency is meant to be the bridge between other actual limited resources.

So, I emailed TMG for clarification and all they responded with is the coins are limited, and coins should be removed when playing with 4 players verses 5 players "for game balance". But did not comment why coins are not also removed for 2 and 3 player counts, to balance them out. (Well, I did receive a response from TMG that 10 coins of any denomination should be removed for balance, but I think that was in complete error, as that makes even less sense.)

Regardless of the canned ruling, I agree with most players, and plan to ignore the arbitrary limit on coins. Mostly because I haven't found a real logical reason as to how it affects balance in any way.


Here is a summary of why I think the coin limits are arbitrary and not really "for balance":
• Real balance should be affected by different player counts, just like the other resource counts are (workers included). Games with 2 vs 3 vs 4 players should have different coin counts if coins affected balance.
• No solvent fiat currency has an achievable limit
• We have yet to run out of coins, so it doesn't appear to apply any real balance pressure anyway (your mileage may vary)
• The game contents just list 47 "coins", but not actual denomination counts. Various editions have included different total coins and value counts. The lack of consistency indicates it doesn't affect game balance. Also, if coins were meant to be a limited resource, the actual total game limit value should be clearly listed in the rules. Imagine if a single unknown coin were lost, how much did you just unbalance the game by, and how do you repair that deficiency with a proxy?
• The Invasion expansion, 5th player expansion, and Christmas promo, all include extra coins. Only the 5th player expansion even mentions removing coins when not playing 5 players. This seems to also indicate coins should not be limited.
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