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Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Blinding Light and Attacks of Opportunity rss

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Cameron Cook
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TL;DR Question: Does using a Play action to play the Event "Blinding Light" trigger an Attack of Opportunity?

More Detailed Description:
My first instinct is to say "Yes". This logic is based not on the spirit of the card, but on looking at the rules.

"Attack of Opportunity" states on page (5) of the rules reference that an Attack of Opportunity occurs when the investigator takes "an action other than to fight, to evade, or to activate a parley or resign ability." and that "An attack of opportunity is made immediately after all costs of initiating the action that provoked the attack have been paid, but before the application of that action's effect on the game state."

Thus, before the Evade effect of the card's text (it's constant ability) takes place an attack of Opportunity occurs.

Action Designators on page three state that Activating an Ability with an action designator "performs the designated action as described in the rules, but modified in the manner described by the ability." But this still does not address the fact that a non-evade/fight action is required to Activate or Play a card's ability, thus triggering an Attack of Opportunity".

I would love to hear other thoughts and theories. My instinct says, the spirit of the rules intends for things like Baseball Bats and Blinding Light to be used as Fight Actions and Evade actions without attacks of opportunity, but to the letter of the rules, the Action that triggered them (Activate or Play) would trigger an attack before their effects (granting the attack or evade "free" action) would.

I'm just trying to follow "The Grim Rule" here.

EDIT: Grammar is hard.
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Matthew Sigal
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Blinding Light is an evade effect, so there would be no attack of opportunity.
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Scott Arnone
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I would say that because the card is actually an Evade action, that it would not. Otherwise it wouldn't really be all that useful. It's activated as the bonded action, so it activates as an Evade, which does not cause an OA.
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Cameron Cook
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I agree that the card effect of Blinding Light is to perform an Evade Effect but the card is an Event and the bring events into play requires the investigator perform a "Play" action (required to bring in an Event or Asset). My argument is that "Play" actions DO trigger attacks of opportunity.
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Richard A. Edwards
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fazicar wrote:
TL;DR Question: Does using a Play action to play the Event "Blinding Light" trigger an Attack of Opportunity?

Yes.

Consider it that you have to take time to prepare the spell, chant, whatever, which is represented by using a PLAY action to get the card into play.

If it didn't require some extra time, it would be a FAST event instead, which would not require an action and not trigger an Attack of Opportunity.

The sequence is:

Play Action. Pay cost for Blinding Light. (See RR, "Each time an investigator is engaged with one or more ready enemies and takes an action other than to fight, to evade, or to activate a parley or resign ability, each of those enemies makes an attack of opportunity against the investigator")

Attack of Opportunity. (See RR, "An attack of opportunity is made immediately after all costs of initiating the action that provoked the attack have been paid, but before the application of that action’s effect upon the game state.")

Blinding Light's effect is applied, causing the Evade.

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Matthew McFarland
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I'm going to get a little nitpicky now, but the Attack of Opportunity rules say it triggers when taking an action other than to fight/evade, not that it triggers when not specifically taking the fight/evade action, if that makes sense. What I mean is, you're taking a Play action, yes, but you're taking that action to Evade, which wouldn't satisfy AoO's trigger. I'm probably not making my point very well...
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Matthew Sigal
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Wait, this isn't covered by:

"Some abilities have bold action designators (such as Fight, Evade, Investigate, or Move). Activating such an ability performs the designated action as described in the rules, but modified in the manner described by the ability."

Hmmmm.
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Phoenix Bird
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This has really got me.

I don’t think it should initiate an Attack of Opportunity and I have even been playing it that way as the first word is Evade.

But technically it is an event card that must us the play action in order to leave your hand.

The Mystics are a high risk/ high reward class so maybe you do have to suffer an AoE in order to evade.

That means all events like Cunning Distraction cause attacks of opportunity too. Yeiks!

Maybe it should have the FAST keyword? But maybe we are supposed to take AoE.

The only thing I can find is page 3 of the RR

Action Designators
Some abilities have bold action designators (such as Fight, Evade, Investigate, or Move). Activating such an ability performs the designated action as described in the rules, but modified in the manner described by the ability.


I think the intention is these keywords replace the action you took to initiate them. That is why the bold Evade is the first word of the spell.

Something for the FAQ definitely.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Phoenix
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Matthew McFarland
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Twitch_City wrote:
Wait, this isn't covered by:

"Some abilities have bold action designators (such as Fight, Evade, Investigate, or Move). Activating such an ability performs the designated action as described in the rules, but modified in the manner described by the ability."

Hmmmm.


There it is, I couldn't find it! I knew I read it somewhere.
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MC Shudde M'ell
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SirRoke wrote:
Blinding Light's effect is applied, causing the Evade.


The Evade is not an effect, but the action itself, in bold as the first point. Compare to Cunning Distraction - just because it's a Tactic doesn't prevent it from following the rules of an Evade action. Blinding Light is constructed exactly the same way, but as a Spell rather than a Tactic.

Ninja'd by Twitch City and Eyefink.
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Phoenix Bird
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AHA!

I think Eyefink has got it there. And I looked through AoE rules a million times! shake

Each time an investigator is engaged with one or more ready enemies and takes an action other than to fight, to evade, or to activate a parley or resign ability

They key word is to.

It doesn’t matter what action you are taking if that action is for the purpose of “to fight, to evade, or to activate a parley or resign.”

If you remove the to then you get an AoE. If you leave it in then you don’t.

We live to fight another day. Woot!

Phoenix
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Richard A. Edwards
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Eyefink wrote:
I'm going to get a little nitpicky now, but the Attack of Opportunity rules say it triggers when taking an action other than to fight/evade, not that it triggers when not specifically taking the fight/evade action, if that makes sense. What I mean is, you're taking a Play action, yes, but you're taking that action to Evade, which wouldn't satisfy AoO's trigger. I'm probably not making my point very well...

I see your point.

But your argument seems to hinge upon Blinding Light being played as an Evade action, not a Play action.

The bolded "Evade" on that card is an "Action Designator":
Rules Reference: "Some abilities have bold action designators (such as Fight, Evade, Investigate, or Move). Activating such an ability performs the designated action as described in the rules, but modified in the manner described by the ability." [my emphasis]

From Event Cards in the Rules Reference:
=If an event card does not have the fast keyword, it may only be played from a player’s hand by performing a “Play” action during his or her turn. You must follow all play permissions/restrictions that card has.

The Initiation Sequence in the Appendix I gives this order:

2. Pay the cost(s). If this step is reached and the cost(s) cannot be paid, abort this process without paying any costs.

==Upon completion of this step, attacks of opportunity, if applicable, resolve.

3. The card commences being played, or the effects of the ability attempt to initiate.

4. The effects of the ability (if not canceled in step 3) complete their initiation, and resolve. The card is regarded as played (and placed in play, or in its owner’s discard pile if it’s an event), and the ability is considered resolved simultaneously with the completion of this step.

So, it seems that Blinding Light doesn't become an Evade until "Activating" and that "being played" and the "effects...initiate[d]" don't occur until after attacks of opportunity.

Thanks to vague wording, is "activating" the same as "being played" or "initiating effects"???

A search of the Rules Reference in PDF shows that the single statement about Action Designators is the ONLY use of the term "activating" or "activation" in the entire rule set. SIGH!

Lacking further evidence, I think activating must occur when being played and initiating effects, which is after the attack of opportunity.

But as so many things in the overly complicated and legalese written rules, it is murky (thus our discussion).


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Richard A. Edwards
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:
AHA!

I think Eyefink has got it there. And I looked through AoE rules a million times! shake

Each time an investigator is engaged with one or more ready enemies and takes an action other than to fight, to evade, or to activate a parley or resign ability

They key word is to.

It doesn’t matter what action you are taking if that action is for the purpose of “to fight, to evade, or to activate a parley or resign.”

If you remove the to then you get an AoE. If you leave it in then you don’t.

We live to fight another day. Woot!

Phoenix

I like this interpretation!
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Cameron Cook
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Eyefink wrote:
I'm going to get a little nitpicky now, but the Attack of Opportunity rules say it triggers when taking an action other than to fight/evade, not that it triggers when not specifically taking the fight/evade action, if that makes sense. What I mean is, you're taking a Play action, yes, but you're taking that action to Evade, which wouldn't satisfy AoO's trigger. I'm probably not making my point very well...


I think this is a good interpretation of the rule. Like I said before, I think the spirit of the rules intends for no Attack of Opportunity in this situation, (otherwise, cards like Baseball bat and knife would be almost useless since they require an Activate action to use.) Having this officially addressed in a future FAQ would be awesome.

Thanks for the replies everyone!
 
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Y'all are really overthinking this.

Blinding Light has the Evade designator. So do other cards. Other cards (like the actions on the Knife, .45 Automatic, Backstab, etc.) have the Fight designator.

If the card or triggered ability has that designator, it is considered an action of that type (Action Designators in the Rules Reference), just modified by whatever the card text says.

So, yes, you can Blinding Light without Attacks of Opportunity. It's a modified Evade, and Evades don't trigger AOOs. You can stab with your Knives, give lots of turkey with your Cunning Distractions, and Backstab all you want without triggering AOOs, because they're all either Fights or Evades.

Meanwhile, Dynamite Blast does not have Fight or Evade on it, so if Roland or Skids drops one at their feet while engaged, they're going to suffer Attacks of Opportunity to do so (and then take 3 to the face from their explosion, but so it goes).

The game is not trying to be difficult.
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Richard A. Edwards
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Gaffa wrote:
Y'all are really overthinking this.

Blinding Light has the Evade designator. So do other cards. Other cards (like the actions on the Knife, .45 Automatic, Backstab, etc.) have the Fight designator.

If the card or triggered ability has that designator, it is considered an action of that type (Action Designators in the Rules Reference), just modified by whatever the card text says.

So, yes, you can Blinding Light without Attacks of Opportunity. It's a modified Evade, and Evades don't trigger AOOs. You can stab with your Knives, give lots of turkey with your Cunning Distractions, and Backstab all you want without triggering AOOs, because they're all either Fights or Evades.

Meanwhile, Dynamite Blast does not have Fight or Evade on it, so if Roland or Skids drops one at their feet while engaged, they're going to suffer Attacks of Opportunity to do so (and then take 3 to the face from their explosion, but so it goes).

The game is not trying to be difficult.


Thanks for this! I agree the game really doesn't need such picky arguments.

I wish the rules weren't written with such lengthy, specific, terminology defining, nth degree pickiness. The style of technical rules writing begs arguments.
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Don
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SirRoke wrote:


I wish the rules weren't written with such lengthy, specific, terminology defining, nth degree pickiness. The style of technical rules writing begs arguments.


I think they're written that way to eliminate misunderstandings rather than create them.
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Richard A. Edwards
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vdaoine wrote:
SirRoke wrote:


I wish the rules weren't written with such lengthy, specific, terminology defining, nth degree pickiness. The style of technical rules writing begs arguments.


I think they're written that way to eliminate misunderstandings rather than create them.

And yet...

Sometimes less is better.

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mathew rynich
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They are written that way because historically LCGs have generated heated rules debates. This being co-op and not competitive will help curves some of that, but I suspect they write them like this as a matter of company policy now just to cover their butts. Separating this stuff out to a Rule Reference guide is greatly appreciated though. I've been very happy with FFG's rule books as of late.
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Matthew McFarland
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Definitely. I feel like the Learn to Play guide is actually complete, as well--though obviously not as detailed. I feel like the main problem I see with some of these rules questions is that people keep trying to add rules that aren't there, or assign meaning to something instead of just taking what it says at face value. There's a lot of needlessly complex "interpretations."
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Quote:
"If an investigator is engaged with one or more ready enemies, performing any action other than to Evade, to Fight, or to Activate an ability with either a Parley or Resign designator"


Quote:
"Some abilities have bold action designators (such as Fight, Evade, Investigate, or Move). Activating such an ability performs the designated action"


We can nitpick or not, but the way the rules are written clearly states, that activating a card ability, with, say, Fight, triggers an attack of opportunity, because activating an ability is an action (the action was activation, not Fight), and such action does not have Parley/Resign designator.

They could've written it very precisely, saying that "performing any action other than Evade or Fight or to activate an ability with Fight, Evade, Parley or Resign designator". This leaves no hole for interpretation and seems very straightforward. But it wasn't written this way, and I think, for a reason.

Nowhere in the rules the "to" part is explained and as such, cannot be interpreted properly.

Now, discussing whether it was an actual intent, that's another story.
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Ivan Cox
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rattkin wrote:
Quote:
"If an investigator is engaged with one or more ready enemies, performing any action other than to Evade, to Fight, or to Activate an ability with either a Parley or Resign designator"


Quote:
"Some abilities have bold action designators (such as Fight, Evade, Investigate, or Move). Activating such an ability performs the designated action"


We can nitpick or not, but the way the rules are written clearly states, that activating a card ability, with, say, Fight, triggers an attack of opportunity, because activating an ability is an action (the action was activation, not Fight), and such action does not have Parley/Resign designator.

They could've written it very precisely, saying that "performing any action other than Evade or Fight or to activate an ability with Fight, Evade, Parley or Resign designator". This leaves no hole for interpretation and seems very straightforward. But it wasn't written this way, and I think, for a reason.

Nowhere in the rules the "to" part is explained and as such, cannot be interpreted properly.

Now, discussing whether it was an actual intent, that's another story.


The bits you quoted disproved your own point.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Nope, I don't think so.
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mathew rynich
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"Each time an investigator is engaged with one or more ready
enemies and takes an action other than to fight, to evade, or
to activate a parley or resign ability"

I use the action on my .45 Automatic to fight. I play Blighting Light to evade. In both cases per the above language I do not trigger an attack of opportunity. That's the actual language for Attacks Of Opportunity in the RR. Nowhere does it say the investigator takes an attack of opportunity if the investigator initiates any other action besides the evade action, the fight action, the parley action or the resign action. There are multiple possible actions that may initiate the act of fighting or evading etc. and those are the actual triggers specified in the RR. That I believe is the main distinction that is tripping people up in this thread.

This all can be done after the costs are paid and before we attempt to execute the skill check specified in the card text and alter the game state so there is no real conflict.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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You are explaining using the terms that are not in the game. "Act of doing something" isn't in the rules. Also, there's no point in arguing on "what's not written is permitted / not permitted", since there's no obvious resolution to that either.

I agree that there are two interpretation and I certainly *do see* both. But there is an unnecessary ambiguity in the rules as written and if taken very literally, there is a hole. If taken with some leeway, there isn't.

I'll submit a rule question to FFG.
 
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