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Magic Realm» Forums » Rules

Subject: Hidden character attacking a Monster... rss

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Raymond J Dennis Jr
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Ok just spent the last 3 weeks learning the rules to MR for a game I had scheduled at a local convention. Played the game once years ago with someone who know the game inside out and had a blast. But trying to remember al the rules yourself is quite hard.

So anyway we had our game and had a great time and worked through looking up rules and questions as we played.

We had one that I would like help with because we couldn't quite find it and figure out how it plays out.

Ok here goes. I'm hidden and there is monster in the clearing with me. During combat I don't lure the monster so he remains unassigned. Now I know I read you can do this but I can't find the exact rule so I don't know if the is a base rule or an advanced optional rule. But anyway I then target the monster and get a free attack on the monster, with the monster not getting to attack me.

How does this play out? Do you put the monster on a confrontation sheet and you setup like normal, where they reposition and then roll for fliping over? But you don't have to worry about them attacking you that round, then you continue on to the next round normally from there? You put the monster on the confrontation sheet, but they get no reposition or roll for flipping so you can intercept and hit them right off?

Do you just automatically hit? You don't need to worry about undercutting or lining up?

Or did I not really read that you can get this free attack and it is something I just made up in myhead?

It makes thematic sense to me, I'm hiding in the bushes, you go by and I jump out and stab you in the back or I slit your throat as you go by(I undercut you,and do the proper amount of harm).
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A K Vikhagen
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IIRC the procedure for sneak attacks is explained in the Book of learning, in the chapter on Woods Girl. You will find useful information there. Also, test the procedure in Realmspeak to make sure that it's correct.

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It's Ambushes (10.A.2) in the 3rd edition rules.

This rule applies to ranged and spell attacks, never melee weapons. I use this rule all the time because it is very thematic and quite dramatic.
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Raymond J Dennis Jr
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Thank you, I will definitely check that out.

tilde72 wrote:
IIRC the procedure for sneak attacks is explained in the Book of learning, in the chapter on Woods Girl. You will find useful information there. Also, test the procedure in Realmspeak to make sure that it's correct.

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Raymond J Dennis Jr
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ulfhethnar wrote:
It's Ambushes (10.A.2) in the 3rd edition rules.

This rule applies to ranged and spell attacks, never melee weapons. I use this rule all the time because it is very thematic and quite dramatic.


Thanks for your answer. I read the rule you are speaking of but that is basically talking about a possibility of staying hidden while shooting a missle or spell, which makes sense to me(although the rule doesn't explain how you set it up, is an automatic success, do you do the confrontation board if you successfully stay hidden?). But the rule I am looking for I do not believe is this one, I am fine with becoming unhidden, I am almost positive I read that you can target a monster that is not assigned after the lure step from a hidden position(obviously it would of been assigned if you were not hidden). But maybe I am incorrect and you can only lure or use this optional Ambush rule just for range & spell attacks.
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I'm pretty new to the game, and I'm not able to look up the specific rules at the moment, but FWIW you're right: if you're hidden in a clearing with a monster, you can target it and attack on the first round without any danger of being attacked by that monster that round.
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Cameron H
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The monster does go onto it own combat chart and rolls for repositioning and tactics. Undercutting and all that still apply.
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Steve Schacher

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The rules references you want are:

8.4.5 Playing Attacks and Maneuvers

Specifically, subsection o. Unassigned Denizens

Quote:
Each unassigned denizen who is being attacked only by characters is positioned on an unused Melee Section by one of the characters who is attacking it. Each denizen is put on a separate Melee Section. Unassigned denizens that are not being attacked can be ignored this round. Example: At the end of the Encounter Step, the Black Knight is hidden in the same clearing with an unassigned Heavy Dragon and an unassigned Giant Bat. In the Melee Step, the Black Knight selects the Dragon as his target, becoming unhidden. The Dragon is put on an unused Melee Section, and the Black Knight plays his Mace with a Fight chit in an attack circle on his own sheet to attack the Dragon. The Dragon does not attack the Black Knight this round. The Giant Bat is not given a Melee Section and does not take part in combat this round.


Then, you want this rule:

8.4.6 Repositioning Denizens and Changing Tactics

Quote:
A denizen (including a hireling) on his own sheet is the “defender” and is positioned in one of the red boxes on an unused Melee Section. After the plays are revealed, the attackers on each sheet (including the defender’s target) can change positions and change tactics randomly. Roll separately for each sheet. Die roll modifiers do not affect these die rolls.


Subsection d. Denizen's Sheets

Quote:
d.2) If the sheet’s defender is an uncontrolled denizen, it can also change positions and change tactics: roll separately for him.


Steve
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Raymond J Dennis Jr
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Steve you are the man! Thank you very much. I knew I had read this and had put it together in my head but was not sure how it worked. I tried it on Realmspeak and it worked beautifully against two ogres. I was hidden. I did not lure. Then I targeted one of the ogres. It got it's own sheet, I thought I was going to undercut it but it flipped but luckily I was in the right position and intercepted and killed it. Then it went to the next round, I'm no longer hidden so the other ogre was assigned to me(on my sheet) and I was able to undercut it and defeat it.

This is a very powerful tactic and will be using it to full effect when I can.

Thanks,

Ray

PS Also thank you Patrick & Cameron.


srschacher wrote:
The rules references you want are:

8.4.5 Playing Attacks and Maneuvers

Specifically, subsection o. Unassigned Denizens

Quote:
Each unassigned denizen who is being attacked only by characters is positioned on an unused Melee Section by one of the characters who is attacking it. Each denizen is put on a separate Melee Section. Unassigned denizens that are not being attacked can be ignored this round. Example: At the end of the Encounter Step, the Black Knight is hidden in the same clearing with an unassigned Heavy Dragon and an unassigned Giant Bat. In the Melee Step, the Black Knight selects the Dragon as his target, becoming unhidden. The Dragon is put on an unused Melee Section, and the Black Knight plays his Mace with a Fight chit in an attack circle on his own sheet to attack the Dragon. The Dragon does not attack the Black Knight this round. The Giant Bat is not given a Melee Section and does not take part in combat this round.


Then, you want this rule:

8.4.6 Repositioning Denizens and Changing Tactics

Quote:
A denizen (including a hireling) on his own sheet is the “defender” and is positioned in one of the red boxes on an unused Melee Section. After the plays are revealed, the attackers on each sheet (including the defender’s target) can change positions and change tactics randomly. Roll separately for each sheet. Die roll modifiers do not affect these die rolls.


Subsection d. Denizen's Sheets

Quote:
d.2) If the sheet’s defender is an uncontrolled denizen, it can also change positions and change tactics: roll separately for him.


Steve
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Steve Schacher

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Ray,

A frequent tactic in this situation is to lie in wait during the first round, and then attack while hidden in the second round. That way, if you miss combat ends.

By doing it in the first round, you expose yourself to the second round attack.

Steve
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Hector Flores
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Beware! This tactic doesn't work against watchful natives!
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Raymond J Dennis Jr
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I didn't even think of that, that is very cool! Thanks!


srschacher wrote:
Ray,

A frequent tactic in this situation is to lie in wait during the first round, and then attack while hidden in the second round. That way, if you miss combat ends.

By doing it in the first round, you expose yourself to the second round attack.

Steve
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FuzzySilk wrote:
I didn't even think of that, that is very cool! Thanks!


srschacher wrote:
Ray,

A frequent tactic in this situation is to lie in wait during the first round, and then attack while hidden in the second round. That way, if you miss combat ends.

By doing it in the first round, you expose yourself to the second round attack.

Steve


Just a hint at the depth of the Realm!
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srschacher wrote:
Ray,

A frequent tactic in this situation is to lie in wait during the first round, and then attack while hidden in the second round. That way, if you miss combat ends.

By doing it in the first round, you expose yourself to the second round attack.

Steve


This is also a tactic I use often. There are further possibilities if you choose to continue the combat.

In the 2nd round, if you deliver a killing shot. Congratulations. But if you are exposed among hostile natives and monsters, you may feel like actually it's you who take the bait and fall into a deadly trap.
That's just one possible outcome. However, if you score a kill unhidden, do not attack again immediately in the 3rd round. Just ready your bow or spell again and let the round finish. Then you can repeat the ambush again in the 4th round. You can keep running this attack cycle (ready in the odd rounds, attack in the even rounds) for the rest of the combat. In fact the more you kill, the less dangerous is the combat.
It is a very powerful and useful tactic indeed, especially for the slower and weaker characters.
Surely you should have some safety measures to minimize the chance of getting caught and slain, like the ability to roll 1 die for Hide, a fast enough Move to run away when things go wrong, and so on.

I really love this rule. A lot of exciting stories can happen there.
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Raymond J Dennis Jr
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I'm confused. I know you are talking abut the optional ambush rule A2, correct not the hidden attack I was originally talking about?

If you become unhidden and you killed the monster on the second round, you would have all the remaining monsters deployed against you for the next round correct? If you do nothing you are going to get hit that round. If you meant to write that you passed your hide roll, then what you are saying makes more sense to me. Also I'm assuming you have to make a hide roll for each round, A.2 doesn't really give complete details on this. I guess what you are describing you wouldn't need to roll when you are alerting your weapon, just on the rounds you are shooting you missle weapon you would need to roll to see if you become unhidden.

This seems really overpowered. Think of it as a sniper, if a sniper starts taking off targets, the targets would scatter and the more shots the targets would have a better idea where it is coming from. I would think there should be an adjustment on the hide roll each round. Still if the rule is in there, then I guess that is the way to use it fully to your advantage, and there is the possibility that you can fail your hide roll on any round.

What is the general consensus on this optional rule? What optional rules do most people play with?


ulfhethnar wrote:
srschacher wrote:
Ray,

A frequent tactic in this situation is to lie in wait during the first round, and then attack while hidden in the second round. That way, if you miss combat ends.

By doing it in the first round, you expose yourself to the second round attack.

Steve


This is also a tactic I use often. There are further possibilities if you choose to continue the combat.

In the 2nd round, if you deliver a killing shot. Congratulations. But if you are exposed among hostile natives and monsters, you may feel like actually it's you who take the bait and fall into a deadly trap.
That's just one possible outcome. However, if you score a kill unhidden, do not attack again immediately in the 3rd round. Just ready your bow or spell again and let the round finish. Then you can repeat the ambush again in the 4th round. You can keep running this attack cycle (ready in the odd rounds, attack in the even rounds) for the rest of the combat. In fact the more you kill, the less dangerous is the combat.
It is a very powerful and useful tactic indeed, especially for the slower and weaker characters.
Surely you should have some safety measures to minimize the chance of getting caught and slain, like the ability to roll 1 die for Hide, a fast enough Move to run away when things go wrong, and so on.

I really love this rule. A lot of exciting stories can happen there.
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FuzzySilk wrote:
I'm confused. I know you are talking abut the optional ambush rule A2, correct not the hidden attack I was originally talking about?

Now I see your point.
Without the Ambushes rule, you becomes unhidden automatically as soon as you target at an enemy.
With the Ambushes rule, you don't have to make any Hide roll as long as you don't target at anyone. '
However, once exposed, you can no longer Hide anymore, with or without the Ambushes rule.

FuzzySilk wrote:
If you become unhidden and you killed the monster on the second round, you would have all the remaining monsters deployed against you for the next round correct? If you do nothing you are going to get hit that round.

Yes, if doing nothing includes not running away or no maneuver (defense).

FuzzySilk wrote:
If you meant to write that you passed your hide roll, then what you are saying makes more sense to me. Also I'm assuming you have to make a hide roll for each round, A.2 doesn't really give complete details on this. I guess what you are describing you wouldn't need to roll when you are alerting your weapon, just on the rounds you are shooting you missle weapon you would need to roll to see if you become unhidden.

Alering a weapon or readying a spell does not require Hide roll; only targeting does.

FuzzySilk wrote:
This seems really overpowered. Think of it as a sniper, if a sniper starts taking off targets, the targets would scatter and the more shots the targets would have a better idea where it is coming from. I would think there should be an adjustment on the hide roll each round. Still if the rule is in there, then I guess that is the way to use it fully to your advantage, and there is the possibility that you can fail your hide roll on any round.

There is no need to adjust the Hide roll. Probability will diminish after each successful Hide roll (1st time = 25/36; 2nd time = 25/36*25/36 ...), which may already represents the increasing awareness of the enemies.

FuzzySilk wrote:
What is the general consensus on this optional rule? What optional rules do most people play with?

That's a neat thing about the game. The optional & advanced rules are modular on top of the core system. For me most of them have thematic reasons and not just for the sake of complexity.
That said, I agree with you that Ambushes can be overpowering if used alone. That's why I will also use the "Watchful Natives" rules alongside Ambushes. Despite the potentially huge reward, ambushing natives becomes far more dangerous than ambushing monsters.

Hope I don't misunderstand your questions.
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Jay Richardson
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Raymond J Dennis Jr wrote:
What is the general consensus on this optional rule? What optional rules do most people play with?

Some other threads about the Optional Rules that might be of interest; an overview:

Introduction to the 3rd Edition Optional Rules
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/181065/introduction-3rd-...

...and a poll:

Which Optional Rules Do You Like?
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1472077/which-optional-r...

Sadly, the poll didn't get many responses, so it's probably not too accurate. The poll is still open, however, until the end of this year.
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Hector Flores
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FuzzySilk wrote:

What is the general consensus on this optional rule? What optional rules do most people play with?


I don't use it - but am not opposed to people using it in game. It makes the solo game using an archer a bit easier. As others have said - that's the beauty of the design - easy to add or remove rules.
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richfam wrote:
...and a poll:

Which Optional Rules Do You Like?
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1472077/which-optional-r...

Sadly, the poll didn't get many responses, so it's probably not too accurate. The poll is still open, however, until the end of this year.


I just put in my vote.
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What do you mean by "with the Ambush rule, you don't have to make any Hide roll as long as you don't target at anyone."? With or without the Ambush rule if you don't target anyone and you were hidden you will stay hidden. The Ambush Rule A2 states you make a roll on the Hide Table if you target an individual denizen or monster with a missle or spell but if you target multiple targets at once you automatically become unhidden. Is this the way you are playing it because again you are confusing me with the way you are writing it

Otherwise I like what you have to say and maybe I'll try the game with the Ambush rule with Watchful Natives.






ulfhethnar wrote:
FuzzySilk wrote:
I'm confused. I know you are talking abut the optional ambush rule A2, correct not the hidden attack I was originally talking about?

Now I see your point.
Without the Ambushes rule, you becomes unhidden automatically as soon as you target at an enemy.
With the Ambushes rule, you don't have to make any Hide roll as long as you don't target at anyone. '
However, once exposed, you can no longer Hide anymore, with or without the Ambushes rule.

FuzzySilk wrote:
If you become unhidden and you killed the monster on the second round, you would have all the remaining monsters deployed against you for the next round correct? If you do nothing you are going to get hit that round.

Yes, if doing nothing includes not running away or no maneuver (defense).

FuzzySilk wrote:
If you meant to write that you passed your hide roll, then what you are saying makes more sense to me. Also I'm assuming you have to make a hide roll for each round, A.2 doesn't really give complete details on this. I guess what you are describing you wouldn't need to roll when you are alerting your weapon, just on the rounds you are shooting you missle weapon you would need to roll to see if you become unhidden.

Alering a weapon or readying a spell does not require Hide roll; only targeting does.

FuzzySilk wrote:
This seems really overpowered. Think of it as a sniper, if a sniper starts taking off targets, the targets would scatter and the more shots the targets would have a better idea where it is coming from. I would think there should be an adjustment on the hide roll each round. Still if the rule is in there, then I guess that is the way to use it fully to your advantage, and there is the possibility that you can fail your hide roll on any round.

There is no need to adjust the Hide roll. Probability will diminish after each successful Hide roll (1st time = 25/36; 2nd time = 25/36*25/36 ...), which may already represents the increasing awareness of the enemies.

FuzzySilk wrote:
What is the general consensus on this optional rule? What optional rules do most people play with?

That's a neat thing about the game. The optional & advanced rules are modular on top of the core system. For me most of them have thematic reasons and not just for the sake of complexity.
That said, I agree with you that Ambushes can be overpowering if used alone. That's why I will also use the "Watchful Natives" rules alongside Ambushes. Despite the potentially huge reward, ambushing natives becomes far more dangerous than ambushing monsters.

Hope I don't misunderstand your questions.
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Thanks Jay,

I will check these two threads out.

Ray



richfam wrote:
Raymond J Dennis Jr wrote:
What is the general consensus on this optional rule? What optional rules do most people play with?

Some other threads about the Optional Rules that might be of interest; an overview:

Introduction to the 3rd Edition Optional Rules
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/181065/introduction-3rd-...

...and a poll:

Which Optional Rules Do You Like?
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1472077/which-optional-r...

Sadly, the poll didn't get many responses, so it's probably not too accurate. The poll is still open, however, until the end of this year.
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FuzzySilk wrote:
What do you mean by "with the Ambush rule, you don't have to make any Hide roll as long as you don't target at anyone."? With or without the Ambush rule if you don't target anyone and you were hidden you will stay hidden. The Ambush Rule A2 states you make a roll on the Hide Table if you target an individual denizen or monster with a missle or spell but if you target multiple targets at once you automatically become unhidden. Is this the way you are playing it because again you are confusing me with the way you are writing it


I was not really trying to explain the whole Ambushes rule, because I was assuming you were talking about targeting a single monster, a more simple and usual case, but not multiple targets. Only few spells can do this. What makes things more complicated is that you may use some of these spells (like Stone Fly) to target either at a single or multiple target).
This rule is exactly as what you summarize. Many of the optional and advanced are actually more accessible and easier to grasp than some of the core rules.
The choice of optional/advanced rules depends on many factors, such as game length, development game, weather etc. Since I generally play 4-month Development Games, Ambushes is a very important tool for low level characters to survive. It's very interesting to see the growth of Captain, Black Knight and Amazon when they finally pick up the Aim ability.
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Ok gotcha. And doing development game sounds fun but it will be a while till I get to that point. I feel good about the base game with normal combat, now I want to get Magic and natives down. I've read all the rules, now it is internalizing them. With out Realm Speak I don't think I would get as far and understand as much because it is so easy to test things and see how they work. I'm going to be mostly playing solo and I love my Karim set(I also have an original first edition) but it is so much easier to play on the computer.

I hope that someday their is an iPad implementation of this game, I know there is a tablet version but it is very bare bones and kind of clunky. Hope it continues to be developed, it would be awesome if Realm Speak's source code was open source, then the guy that is doing the tablet version could progress a lot faster.





ulfhethnar wrote:
FuzzySilk wrote:
What do you mean by "with the Ambush rule, you don't have to make any Hide roll as long as you don't target at anyone."? With or without the Ambush rule if you don't target anyone and you were hidden you will stay hidden. The Ambush Rule A2 states you make a roll on the Hide Table if you target an individual denizen or monster with a missle or spell but if you target multiple targets at once you automatically become unhidden. Is this the way you are playing it because again you are confusing me with the way you are writing it


I was not really trying to explain the whole Ambushes rule, because I was assuming you were talking about targeting a single monster, a more simple and usual case, but not multiple targets. Only few spells can do this. What makes things more complicated is that you may use some of these spells (like Stone Fly) to target either at a single or multiple target).
This rule is exactly as what you summarize. Many of the optional and advanced are actually more accessible and easier to grasp than some of the core rules.
The choice of optional/advanced rules depends on many factors, such as game length, development game, weather etc. Since I generally play 4-month Development Games, Ambushes is a very important tool for low level characters to survive. It's very interesting to see the growth of Captain, Black Knight and Amazon when they finally pick up the Aim ability.
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A very handy reference is the illustrated examples in the rulebook itself. And you can also check out the good old AH General Magazine Vol 16 Issue 4 with several articles written by Richard Hamblen himself. The walkthrough article and the FAQ, despite their age, are still very useful. There are also a couple of easy to follow illustrated examples within the pages.
I remember when I first learned those rules I simply set up and pushed the pieces following these examples. Quick and effective without getting lost.
The game is very deep and tremendously thematic. The most complicated parts perhaps are combat with natives and spells. But once you get the hang of the core mechanics everything falls out nicely.
After learning natives and magic, you may try doing something very interesting (and crazy), like hiring goblins as henchmen, controlling wolves and bats, and flying at the back of your pet T Dragon (you can also transform yourself into one).
Enjoy your walk in the Realm!
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ulfhethnar wrote:
controlling wolves



... How to control wolves?
 
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