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Subject: Questions about Journeyman Item Cards (dual wield and elemental attacks) rss

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Dan Cordz
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Overall the new expansions look awesome, but I had two questions about how some of the new items worked.

First, can items with the Dual Wield keyword be used to make normal attacks (so long as they have the applicable matching keyword, melee for example)?

After reading the rules it seems pretty clear that any equipped item can be used to make a normal attack as long as it has a matching keyword.

However, the Swashbuckler's starting items made me wonder if this was actually correct. The improvised Shiv is identical to the replica rapier except for the fact that it has the dual wield keyword in addition to the melee and weapon keywords, and it supplies an extra fate die. If the improvised shiv can be used to perform normal attacks (and I see nothing in the rules to suggest otherwise), what is the point of the Replica Rapier? The Improvised Shiv seems to be strictly better (although I'm sure someone can come up with some wacky edge case where the Replica Rapier would be useful...). Am I missing something here?

The second question has to do with the new items which have some form of element before the attack keyword. For example, the blue Reaver item from Blackwall Warrens says "Ice Attack: +4 D10, +3FD". Does this mean that this item can be used to perform any melee attack (even melee hero cards without the ice keyword), and the attack should also be considered an ice attack? Or does this mean that the Reaver can only be used to perform attack actions which have the ice keyword on the hero card? The rules seem to suggest the latter interpretation (keywords on items always need to match keywords on boosted hero cards). However, this would seem to make these items fairly useless. For example, the Reaver is clearly designed to be used by the Outsider, but the Outsider doesn't have any hero cards with the ice keyword! I'm really surprised that the rulebook doesn't clearly address this issue anywhere.

Can anyone shed some light on these issues for me?
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Dan Gillis
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I asked over at Megacon forums and got a part of the answer for your first question
http://megacongames.com/community/#/discussion/2114/shores-o...

Kenny states that only the secondary weapon can be used for rush attacks. That suggests that only a item with dual wield can be placed in the secondary (shield) slot. Technically, you could use the shiv in the primary slot, but you could not use the rapier as a dual wield.

That Reaver states melee, so I take it as it performs the attack with the added benefit of an ice element. Elemental weakness is entering more into the game now and players should watch for matches. It was there with Holy before, and now I am playing Shores of Kanis and my Weaver is having a hay-day with the mystical buff applied to my arcane attacks (-2 TN).

 
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Dan Cordz
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Thanks Dan, although I think you may have misunderstood my question. I understand that only weapons equipped in the secondary weapon slot can be used for rush attacks. Also, I don't think that you technically could use the shiv in the primary slot, because it does not have a sword symbol.

My question remains, can weapons in the secondary slot with the dual wield keyword still be used to perform normal attacks, as long as they have the proper keywords?


Regarding the Reaver and other similar weapons, I think I agree with your interpretation, its just strange that this seems to go against how keywords on items are used in all other cases (normally keywords on items need to match a keyword on a hero card in order to be used...)
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Endevor Rovedne
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It grant the Ice keyword to your attack, it interact with the immunities ans with the weakness abilities of the monsters.
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Joe Price
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The items I remember with the elemental (and arcane) additions actually have it in the dice modifier line. So "Arcane Attack: +x D10 +y FD". I looked through the blues to make sure - the rest of the "normal" keywords in the picture section were the same. So I am taking the modifier in front of the "Attack" die modifier section as the additional damage type.

In addition, there are now official vulnerabilities in the manuals. They reference items that do elemental damage - since with the blues, that's the only place I've seen with elemental types, it all ties together.

As far as using the dual wield weapon for primary attacks - so far we haven't. As you've pointed out, if you have a better dual wield weapon than primary, why would you ever use the primary? Might as well single wield the dual wield weapon in your "off hand". It didn't sit well with us. So until I learn otherwise, my answer is "no". Of course, MCG has ruled completely opposite to what I have expected in the past, so...
 
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Endevor Rovedne
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You NEED a dual wield weapon to make a Rush attack it is 100% certain.

For the ice attack : i confim it add the ice keyword to all your attacks i asked the question during my translation.
I chose to make a small change to this in the french cards
Attack : Ice, +XD10, +YFD instead of the english version.
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Endevor Rovedne
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Just a copy paste from the Rush section

"This ability grants new functionality to interrupt hero cards. If a hero has an item with the Dual Wield keyword equipped in their secondary slot, they may perform a Rush attack. To perform a Rush attack, a hero must play an interrupt card upside down in an available action space. This increases the darkness AP by 1 and grants the hero 1 attack for 1 damage using the dice pool from the secondary item."

The If you have ... you may is clear for me no ambiguity here.
Then it state you must use the dice pool from your secondary item.
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Joe Price
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Endevor, the question isn't whether you can use a non-dual wield weapon for a rush attack, but whether you can use a dual wield weapon for a normal attack. Most of them have the appropriate keywords.

I do like your version for where to put the effect. Much more clear to me.
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Paul Kelly
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My understanding of the question is:

If I have a super blue dual wield weapon in my shield location, and my brown starting gear in my primary weapon slot, both of which say melee and weapon, then in preference I can use the dual wield weapon for all attacks, not just the Rush ones (for which only the secondary weapon can be used).

If that is the right question interpretation then my take on it would be you could.

Something in the back of my head though is half remembering some other benefit from the offhand weapon to the main hand weapon attack but that could be unrelated entirely.
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David Jackson
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I have nothing official to go off of, but my own hunch is that Dual-Wield items can (should?) only be used during rush attacks, or when a Hero card specifically calls for an attack with a Dual-Wield item.


Small quote from Kenny a long time ago when the dual wield mechanics were teased-

"I can tell you that all initial testing with dual wield items of blue quality or better (ones that activate hero level abilities) are devastating and generate a significant amount of threat for the heroes to deal with. So we don't really don't want these to become a primary weapon."

I don't have access to the rulebooks to look through at the moment to see if there is anything there regarding this, but I would think the "Dual Wield" tag may exclude the items from being used unless specifically called for.

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Dan Cordz
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CarelessOpossum wrote:
I have nothing official to go off of, but my own hunch is that Dual-Wield items can (should?) only be used during rush attacks, or when a Hero card specifically calls for an attack with a Dual-Wield item.



That's what I initially assumed as well... however there is nothing in the new rules to suggest this (as far as I can tell... It's possible I could be missing something). "Dual Wield" isn't even listed under the New Keywords section. Given the absence of new rules limiting the use of Dual Wield items, I can only refer to the 2.0 rules for attacking with items on page 25:

Quote:
When performing an attack, a hero may choose one of his equipped items with a keyword matching a keyword listed on the hero card providing the attack. If the hero has multiple items equipped with keywords matching those listed on the hero card, he may choose only one of those equipped items to use.


Based on those rules, it seems pretty clear that a hero *should* be able to use a dual wield item to perform a normal attack, provided of course that it has the appropriate keywords. Just like the apprentice can use focus items in the secondary slot to perform normal focus attacks. However, if this is true, then I don't understand what the purpose of the swashbuckler's starting gear is. Specifically, his primary weapon "Replica Rapier" is strictly worse than his secondary weapon, the "Improvised Shiv" which has exactly the same keywords and fate die recipe, but provides an additional fate die bonus. Why would the Swashbuckler ever actually use his "Replica Rapier" instead of using the "Improvised Shiv" for all his attacks until he finds a better primary or secondary weapon?
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Dan Cordz
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Endevor wrote:
Just a copy paste from the Rush section

"This ability grants new functionality to interrupt hero cards. If a hero has an item with the Dual Wield keyword equipped in their secondary slot, they may perform a Rush attack. To perform a Rush attack, a hero must play an interrupt card upside down in an available action space. This increases the darkness AP by 1 and grants the hero 1 attack for 1 damage using the dice pool from the secondary item."

The If you have ... you may is clear for me no ambiguity here.
Then it state you must use the dice pool from your secondary item.


As Joe has pointed out, that wasn't quite what I'm confused about. It's clear that items without dual wield cannot be used to perform rush attacks. What I'm wondering is whether dual wield items can be used to perform normal attacks.
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Judy Krauss
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js379 wrote:
I'm pretty sure I remember one of the Mercs saying that if you have two weapons then you can use either one for your attacks as long as they have the appropriate keywords. I don't remember where I saw this though as its been awhile.


I remember Kenny saying that also. I think it was in response to some questions about the Hunter on the MCG forums.
 
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Judy Krauss
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js379 wrote:
I've been too busy to look through my jm stuff and check out the swash starting gear but would it make sense to give the extra bonus to the rapier since it doesn't have the duel wield keyword? That would seem to be the easy fix for me.


I suspect that since there aren't a lot of duel wield off-hand weapons, but there are a lot of good green and blue main-hand weapons, that soon the Swashbuckler hero will have a main hand weapon that is far superior to the off-hand weapon, so it really doesn't matter much. But, I agree that it does look a bit funny and maybe the rapier should have had a bonus FD and/or recipe or something, too.
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