$35.00
Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

Pixel Tactics» Forums » Variants

Subject: Upgradeable Leaders? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jim Robinson
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
EDIT: Please scroll down to my final post. This was a work in progress at the time it was posted and the cards in this first post represented the first draft. The cards and abilities ultimately changed so much that they do not resemble the final product shown in the last post..

- - - - - - - - -

I've wondered what a Leader that you could customize would play like. In that fashion, I whipped up the following Leader and upgrades for them. This has not been play tested whatsoever, but I wanted to see what the community thought of upgradeable leaders as a concept.



Here are the upgrade cards:



There are three energy tank upgrade cards.



There are two missile tank upgrade cards.

All the rest of the upgrades have only one card each.









1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dom Hiob
Germany
Bonn
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I really like the idea. Here's some thoughts after a short first look at the leader side and the first few upgrades.

- How will the upgrade cards interact with existing cards that let you access cards from the opponent's hand (I'm thinking of stuff like "Choose a card from opponent's hand at random and execute its Order effect" -- what happens if I randomly get the Upgrade card?)
- as it is, I think the cards are WAY too strong
- it's actually a pretty big plus to have more cards than your opponent. You start out with 30 25 cards in your deck rather than 20.
- Having so many Upgrade cards also means you'll very frequently get some of them.
- Sort of contrary to the last point, but still: Personally, I dislike the random access to the Upgrades. I'd much rather have them be a lot less powerful, but so that I can make use of them whenever I want to
- relatedly: For balance reasons I'd prefer it if the opponent could somehow destroy Upgrades that are in effect. This could be done, for example, by giving each Upgrade a hit point score. If the opponent damages the leader, he must choose whether to deal the damage to the leader or to one of his upgrades.
- I take it the cards that increase maximum health don't increase current health?

That's it for now. Please don't feel discouraged. I haven't tested anything, these were just uninformed random thoughts that came to mind. And, as I said, I really really like the basic idea. So I'm looking forward to the next iteration


edit: ooh... I really misread the leader ability. So much for that. Adjusted numbers above.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Robinson
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Thanks so much for the feedback!

Here was my thought process on designing Samus (The card says "Shamus," but I only did that so the image wouldn't be taken down for copyright purposes, but henceforth I'm just going to say Samus as the jig is obviously transparent enough as it is, lol). Samus starts out with a measly 2 attack and 12 defense which is pretty poor for a Leader. Samus also doesn't give your unit any sort of boost. She only increases her own power. So by necessity you pretty much have to take at least 2 Energy Tanks and 1 Missile Tank. That limits your upgrade options quite a bit. Otherwise Samus would die very quickly. Another important weakness is that Samus doesn't have a ranged attack, which seems counter intuitive, but a lot of Leaders that seem like they should have ranged attacks don't. This is an important limitation because she can't just snipe her way to victory. The final thing is that her upgrades do not stack. The missile tanks do, but that only upgrades her most basic attacks. The shine spark and screw attacks hit a lot of heroes, but they each only do two damage each because the missile tanks do not beef up these attacks. The only exception is the super bomb but that is a once-time use only. Another problem is that she doesn't start upgraded. It's possible to kill her off before she beefs herself up.

Again though, all of this is just my own thought process on the idea. I have done exactly zero play testing, but in my head it seems to balance out because her fancy attacks do not stack.

We will have to see though. This was just an experiment. Although I like the flavor of the character would like to refine her further, but I have very little time and will most likely not be able to play test her myself very often.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Robinson
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
So I did some basic play testing and have made some changes. First, the new Leader card:



The changes here are that it describes what happens if the Upgrade Cards are stolen from your hand. They are just discarded in that case. It also says that the Upgrade Cards can be forced to be discarded through abilities, powers, spells, etc.

Also, here is the hero side of the card:



I like the order power on the hero side. It let's you use an upgrade card on one of your heroes (except Varia Suit or Super Bomb).

Here are the bigger changes:



Energy Tank: I reduced the amount of health gains from 10 to 6, and I reduced the number Energy Tanks from 3 to 2. Essentially what this does is helps balance the character out. Since Samus only has 12 health, you pretty much have to take both Energy Tanks; for a total amount of 24 health. If you only take one Energy Tank you could have 18 health and more upgrade options, but it is a trade off.

Since the number of Energy Tanks was reduced to 2 cards, this leaves only 9 cards to choose from. To make up the difference I created another upgrade:



This helps increase your defense, but also take sup two upgrade slots. Meaning if you took two energy tanks and the Varia Suit then you only have space for one fancy upgrade attacks.

I nerfed the Super Bomb. I reduced the damage from 4 to 3 to all adjacent characters, rather than just a massive attacks. It is still deadly, but much less so. I also made it so the bomb is returned to the game box after use. That way, when cards reshuffle your deck you can't get it back.



Finally, I reduced the Missile Tanks damage upgrades from 4 to 3. If you take both tanks now your max damage would be 8 rather than 10.



So right now the upgrade card list is:

x2 Energy Tanks
x2 Missile Tanks
x1 Bombs
x1 Super Bomb
x1 Ice Beam
x1 Varia Suit
x1 Screw Attack
x1 Shine Spark
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Robinson
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Reduced bombs to one.


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dom Hiob
Germany
Bonn
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I really like the changes! -- On the Energy tanks, I'd slightly change the wording to read: "Maximum health of this leader is permanently increased by 6. Gain 6 health." The latter, because obviously "current health" should increase as well, not just "maximum health".

Now, I'll have to print this leader as soon as possible, though I'm afraid I won't be able to play until next year (I'm really low on spare time, preparing for an exam right now).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Robinson
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
I can make that change, but wouldn't it be a double whammy? If your max health is increased by 6, then you just have to take more damage until you die. But if you increase your max health by 6, but also heal by 6, then not only do you have to take more damage you also heal. Wouldn't this make Samus incredibly power?

For example, let's go worst case scenario here and say: "Samus has taken 11 damage with no upgrades. She then plays an energy tank."

If we go by how the cards are written, she keeps the same damage, but now will need 7 more hits to die instead of 1. If we go with your language she will heal 6 too, meaning she will require 13 more hits to kill instead of 1.

Overall, if the worst case scenario is applied in both scenarios (one damage point away from death each time she plays an energy tank), her effective health is not 24, but rather 36.

Does that make sense? Or is my thinking off track here?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dom Hiob
Germany
Bonn
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Astrobot7000 wrote:
I can make that change, but wouldn't it be a double whammy? If your max health is increased by 6, then you just have to take more damage until you die. But if you increase your max health by 6, but also heal by 6, then not only do you have to take more damage you also heal. Wouldn't this make Samus incredibly power?

For example, let's go worst case scenario here and say: "Samus has taken 11 damage with no upgrades. She then plays an energy tank."

If we go by how the cards are written, she keeps the same damage, but now will need 7 more hits to die instead of 1. If we go with your language she will heal 6 too, meaning she will require 13 more hits to kill instead of 1.

Overall, if the worst case scenario is applied in both scenarios (one damage point away from death each time she plays an energy tank), her effective health is not 24, but rather 36.

Does that make sense? Or is my thinking off track here?


You're absolutely right. I was stupid in a way: My thinking came from games where you have a "current health" stat. Increasing "max health" in these games doesn't change your "current health" at all, but means you can now heal up to the new limit set by "max health". Of course, PT works different in that you track damage rather than health, so increasing max health will do the trick just fine. Sorry for the confusion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Robinson
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Well don't write your opinion off just yet. She still has a lot of play testing to do. Without a ranged attack she may actually end up being rather weak but having to expose herself to do anything. And without knowing whether your upgrades will show up it might be necessary to have her heal a bit when equipping the Energy Tanks. My instinct would be to only have her health 3 though, if it is indeed required.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Robinson
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
After further testing, I have changed the Missile Upgrades yet again. These changes make it a lot more fiddly with this/than parameters, but it gives the player more strategic choices.

Here are the changes: I lowered the upgraded damage from 3 to to 2. So if two missile tanks are equipped, Samus gets a total attack value of 6 (rather than 8). However, if you have both missile tanks equipped it opens up a new, non-mandatory, attack option. If both are equipped you can now make Ranged Attacks, but the ranged attacks only deal 2 damage instead of 6. These ranged attacks can be combined with Shine Spark and Screw Attack to awesome splash damage effects. However, Shine Spark and Screw Attack still cannot be combined with your basic upgrade attacks. So the choice here is do 6 damage to a single character in melee, or do 2 damage to any single character anywhere with the potential option of hitting the other characters in the column or row.

While it does make it a bit more complex (I hope players will not be confused) I think it makes Samus more fun to play and really opens up other equipment options by making them seem more attractive with a ranged attack.

Other changes are:
- Screw Attack and Shine Spark are now limited actions instead of long actions.
- Rather than write all these if/than conditions on the Shine Spark and Screw Attack cards I decided it would just be easier to let them be combined with ranged attacks and upgraded melee attacks. However, the maximum damage is always 2, despite the upgraded melee attacks.
- Reworded a lot of cards to make this easier to understand (hopefully)
- Changed the Super Bomb again to make it clearer
- Equipping upgrade cards is now a limited free action

Since there are so many changes I will just re-post all cards here.








There are two Energy Tanks in her upgrade choices




There are two Missile Tanks in her upgrade choices









The card spread is:

1. Samus
2. Missile Tank
3. Missile Tank
4. Energy Tank
5. Energy Tank
6. Ice Beam
7. Screw Attack
8. Shine Spark
9. Bombs
10. Super Bomb
11. Varia Suit

My play testing with these changes have shown Samus to be pretty fair (although a bit weaker than you would expect - she wins only about 40% of the time). Since this is a game that is impossible to completely balance, I think that is a pretty good "fairness" percentage. Therefore, I will consider this character to be complete unless I get more feedback from you guys. If no further feedback comes, I hope you enjoy playing with her if you ever try her out.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dom Hiob
Germany
Bonn
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
this looks great -- the next time I get to a copy shop (maybe next week or so), I'll have these printed out. And then to hope I get them on the table soon
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.