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Subject: Review of Seafall, 2P and 4P (EDITED after 3 campaigns and 40+ games !) rss

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Nathanaël Dufour
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Okay so my girlfriend and I are playing Seafall 2P, and loving it. We must have played around 20 40 hours so far and are only halfway through. almost to the end, unless there's a big twist we haven't anticipated.

So my first take is : Seafall is GREAT.
However it is NOT for everybody, and the fact that you don't know what the game is like when you buy it can create false hope.
So let's start with

The Flaws of the game :


I will start by saying that after 9 games (we did the Prologue twice because we hadn't all the rules), I don't see most of these as flaws anymore. That is, almost every thing I dislike about the game I now see as a trade off :

1 The game is complicated. Hard to learn, hard to teach. I only groked the game after session four, and my gf still got many important rules wrong after session 5 (although I was correcting her everytime, so that might be her not listening to me). Just during game 7 I discovered we were playing a minor rule wrong (it wasn't important until now).

BUT that is a trade off. in exchange for two things :
- the game is DIFFERENT in its mechanics than most games I've played.
- it gives you many ways to play. You can be an Explorer, a Pirate, a Merchant, a Jack of All Trades... You can even change that from game to game quite easily. Some of these seem unbalanced at first, but if you play well they do even themselves afterwards.




2. Luck is involved :
If you try to play without risks, you won't win. Buying and reselling goods is less efficient than exploring or pillaging.

Although you can mitigate those risks, sometimes you will have a very bad roll and lose a lot. Sometimes another player will, against all odds, get an incredible roll and take a huge lead.

BUT that is a trade-off. It makes for these incredible moments wich you remember from game to game. No, this game is not an Euro, and that's probably a good thing given its theme and scenario.

3. The game is long.

Our first games were between 2 and 3 hours. It nows has reduced to less than 90 minutes because we have a good understanding of what we can do, anticipate much more our actions etc.
I happen to like long games, but it can probably be hard especially if you play 5 players, with a lot of downtime.

3b. There can be a lot of Analysis Paralyzis
Every turn someone has to choose ONE advisor from a pool of 5. AP-prone players can get stuck for a looong time looking at every possibility. It gets better later on when most advisors are named (ie you know what they do at a glance) and when the objectives you gave to yourself are clearer ("okay, this game I'm going for this milestone, so I look for advisors for moving and exploring...")

However, I think this is again the price to pay for such a rich pool of options. Taking out this diversity would make the game much less interesting IMO.

4. Some elements are swingy.

Milestones are worth a lot of Glory. So are (spoilers for the 2nd/3rd box, the one wich looks like a Temple)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Tombs

A risky raid or explore can be the difference between a glorious victory or a crushing defeat.

I don't see that as a problem anymore, but if you do, maybe look down for some mitigating houserules. I do wish I had realized earlier how important it is to try for the milestones and that other thing.


Things that I love :


6. The enmity system is GREAT.
It is smart, it prevents over aggression (peaceful players will have one or two painful moments but can't be the target of someone again and again.
At the same time, players who like to fight can retaliate and give back that enmity by evening the score (stealing back what was stolen, etc)
You can't be a pirate all the time : my first two games I raided everywhere, got a big lead in glory points then had so much enmity I had to do something else for 3+ games. Now, by focusing on ways to remove it, I will be able next game to attack again.

I was afraid it could make war between players useless or untenable : instead it gives (so far) just the right balance between war and peace.

7. The legacy elements are numerous and interesting.
We opened a new box every game during the first 3 games. The game got really interesting, and 4 games later we are still exploring the new possibilites (and captain booke entries) it gave us.

7.b There are amazing twists built into the game. I'd say those are on par with Pandemic:Legacy, although the intensity of the reveals might vary a lot depending on how immersed your players are in your world.

8. You can make long term strategic choices (although with partial information)
My girfriend specialized her ships for exploration early on, and increased Sail for the heavy one. She always move her full fleet towards new sites.
On the other hand, I increased my already fast ship to be even faster, and the big one to be a strong raider. I send one ahead to explore and move goods around, while the other slowly burns.
We have two very different gameplays that both seem to work equally well, and I love that.

Whenever one of us made a choice they regretted the following game, they eventually concluded it wasn't so bad because it became useful later on.

9. The catch-up mechanism is JUST RIGHT.

At the beginning I was afraid of the runaway leader. I got a huge lead after 3 games. Then my girlfriend caught up (very minor spoilers for box 1)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
using the bonuses you get for being Duchess

I then got worried the game didn't reward skill at all, that being the winner wasn't important. I was wrong. I know feel like every permanent upgrade you get for winning or getting a milestone is very important because it coumpounds in later games.

Basically you should always try to do as well as you can and win as often as you can. BUT the game will push back to make that harder and harder, giving the others a chance to catch up, while never giving the other players LONG-TERM benefits that might make it better to lose.

10. The game keeps you thinking in between sessions.
Where Risk Legacy was a lot about reacting to the way the other players fought and Pandemic Legacy was very linear in the way it unfolded,in Seafall I can actually focus on what I should do next game. While I don't know which advisors and event will occur, I already know I'm going to go to THESE islands to buy THESE resources, then to THIS one to raid THIS place, then use all that to do this thing... I also know that when I get the chance I'm going to raid my girlfriend's province for this and that, etc.

Other things i LOVE but cannot talk about without spoilers (the further you go the bigger the spoilers) :

Spoiler box 1 (ship):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the balancing of different paths. Some moments the gameplay favours exploring, other raidings, other trading...

Spoiler box 2 (city):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The building of colonies and creation of an empire. We actually unlocked that one AFTER box 3, which I to me was less fun because my gf was better at handling THAT content

Spoiler box 3 (temple) :
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The way Relics and Tablets are kept from game to game but can be stolen. THAT WAS AWESOME. My girlfriend and I attacked each other back and forth to get a Relic which eventually sunk and was lost...

Spoiler box 4 (octopus) :
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The way the game changed as soon as Ker and Patmos appeared. Suddenly everyone HATED us on the islands... Strategy which used to be viable weren't anymore.

Also, the fact that you needed to first find a map then explore...

Spoiler box 5 (key) :
Spoiler (click to reveal)

THe Light of Truth system and (spoilers for the reveal of some advisors)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
how it gets deeper and deeper, allowing you to use it on other things


Also, the maps splitted in several parts.


Things i feel could be done better

11. The leaders see little to no development as characters. Much less than Pandemic:Legacy did.

12. The story doesn't develop as much as the gameplay does. Again, Pandemic:Legacy was much better on that score.

13. The rules are often ambiguously written, or difficult to grasp. In a normal game, this is solved by 30 minutes of reading the FAQ after your 2nd game. In a legacy game, this is much harder because of the fear of spoilers.

EDIT : The rules are unclear about many things. I feel like there should have been more rules stickers in each box, to make sure the new rules are clearly explained. It wouldn't have been difficult to add a few sentences to each new entry to make things cristal clear...

On the other hand, the basic rules could have done away with everything that doesn't matter in the early game (Research cards, Supporting defence ships, etc...) and spend some time making the core rules clear.
A few times, there is a Captain booke entry that tells you about one new rule, and then it's never mentioned again. If you forget about it (as has happened to us twice) you may never know. Which ties into ...

14. There is no "Legacy Deck" as in Pandemic:Legacy, where you could see the story unfold and everyone could read it. The scenario is unfolding through the Captain's booke, where you check an entry after someone explores a site or accomplishes a milestone, and that's the only way the story progresses.
Meaning that if the reader misses something everyone misses it. These readings can sometimes be rushed (because the player is focusing on the game at hand) instead of the epic Mission Briefings you were getting in P:L (which happened BETWEEN games for the most part), which can make it harder to get into the story line.

CONCLUSION :
I really love SeaFall. I love it more than pandemic legacy (which was one of my best experiences of gaming), although they are so very different.

I think you'll love it too if :
- you like heavy games, enough that you would willingly go through one or 2 games of being confused before the game starts shining
- you and your friends aren't afraid of committing to a looong time of playing (a full campaing is probably like 15 evenings of playing 2-3 hours ?)
- you are okay with swinginess and randomness
- you are okay with feeling desperate from time to time in a game (it should not be more than 2 games in a row, unless there is a lot of skill disparities between players, but that might be enough to convince some people that the game is not fun.)

Advice for people starting this game :

1. Do not houserule. Every time we considered houseruling something, we were glad we didn't 2 or 3 games later. Trust the game balance. If you feel something is too good, try to get it for yourself and preventing others from getting it.

I have to get back somewhat on this after playing my second campaign (4P). I feel some things should be houseruled :
Quote:
1. Glory awarded through Milestones and Captain's Booke should be diminished somewhat. Many players are basically saying you should halve it (rounded up), and I tend to agree.
1a. A weaker countermeasure could be to have Glory come in the shape of treasure, making it raidable. That's what we did in my second campaign and it worked fine, but only was really relevant two or three times in 15 games.[/o]
Quote:
1b. For balance, you might want to restrict the effect of Glory stickers (the +1 purple sticker you'll get as a reward sometimes) only to expensive (18 or more) Buildings, Upgrades and Treasures.

Quote:

2. Selling Goods should net you 8 or 10 gold per good, not 6. To avoid Trading being too good :
3. When raiding a ship, the attacker should choose which ship is the target. This makes it easier to attack the ships of the Princess (and the other players, but there are mechanisms in the game to make it easier against her), and therefore makes it possible to coordinate among the others to slow her down.





2. Re-read the rules between each session, to check the details you may have missed. Or have someone in your game group which likes this sort of thing do it for you. Ideally, get someone who has finished the campaign to walk you through the rules explanations.

3. CHECK online when something really feels odd. DO NOT TRUST your interpretation of the rulebook.

4. Make it clear to players that Milestones are REALLY IMPORTANT. You should not ignore them.
Same for (spoilers box 3, the one with something like a temple on it)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Tombs


5. Do not spend too much time customizing your leaders, ships, etc before your prologue : grab whichever leader, name it, play the prologue, get into it quickly. Understand the rules, check for any mistakes online. When you start game 1 and you understand how things work, THEN you can start thinking about which identity you want to give to your province/leaders/ships

6. Give every player a pen with their color (one that does not make big inkbloats)

7. make it clear to everybody that they should prepare for their turn by looking at the advisor and choosing which guild to use before their turn comes. They should name their advisors AFTER their turn, while others are playing. The game will be much faster.

8. When reading the captain's booke, have the player to your right read the choices for you. It will make you and them more focused, instead of one player mumbling it and the others losing interest into what's going on.

9. Make it fun and epic. Pirate music, flag, costume, you name it. Text your opponent about the glory being yours. Re-name your ships after they have sunk.
10. Don't destroy the milestones card when they're done. Mark them (an X in the color of the player who did it will do nicely) so that you can reread the text if need be.

11. Before each session, have players collectively sum up what has been going on in the world so far. Interesting bits of knowledge given by the natives. Rumors heard while finishing a Milestone. This should make future Booke entries more interesting, because collectively they form the background of the world you're exploring.
Maybe write down the information you have somewhere (either collectively or each one for themselves).
____________________________________
THOUGHTS ABOUT PLAYER COUNT :

Those 12 games have been 2 players. Everything I said above holds for all player counts I feel. In addition :

I think SeaFall 2P is great as a game of optimisation (My girlfriend and I play 2P Ghost Stories and Agricola...) and exploration/discovery of a story (we enjoyed TIME Stories, Sherlock Holmes consulting detective...).

I'm currently 3 games into a 4P campaign, and I love it even more. The game has a much stronger "take that" and competition aspect, with more moments of "damn I'm so far behind" frustration. I don't feel however that there's a problem of runaway leader (for the reason I detailed above) on the overall campagin : if someone takes the lead in a game, the game will push back on the next 2 or 3 games, giving the others a way to catch up.


___________________________________________________________________

So what about the negative reviews ? :

Okay so here are my updated thoughts, one month later, prologue + 7 games into my second campaign (4P).

I still love this game very much and everyone on both campaigns enjoyed it as well. After reading many negative reviews, I'd like to concede a few points :

1. Yes, the game is swingy. Often when you win, you win by a lot, because you do a big glory related And yes, players have been frustrated with this. If losing from time to time through a bit of bad luck is very painful for you, don't play Seafall.

2. No, the game isn't unbalanced. The catch up mechanisms work fine. But if a player consistently plays (a lot) better, he will win (a lot) more often. That's a feature, not a bug.

3. Yes, the results of the exploration of the islands are often kind of bland and vague. I understand how it can be a disappointment. There's a real story behind SeaFall, but the bulk of that story is almost entirely contained in boxes 5 (opened by games 7/8 I guess ?) and 6. In the meantime, that story exists mostly by how YOU (the players) build it among yourselves. And I agree with the negative reviews that SeaFall could be order of magnitudes better if this was managed better.

(It still good enough that my girlfriend, which ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY cared for Exploration, loved all 21 games of our campaign, and wants to join the 4P-campaign to do some more exploring.)

4. Yes, the game can be long. But it doesn't HAVE to be. Twice did we do 3 games in a row in less than 6 hours, while eating, discussing etc.
Downtime is no big deal if you organize things (one player plays, another reads him the book outloud, another updates the Explorer's Map/writes down Milestones/places stickers/updates glory, and the 4th player is preparing his next turn).
If you're often victim of Analysis Paralysis, maybe warn the others before the campaign.

5. The game DOES throw bad things at you, forcing to change your strategy from game to game. Pandemic Legacy did the same, but it was a co-op, so there wasn't that frustration of "Argh I'm getting screwed !" I personally liked it (despite being on the receiving end), and enjoyed changing and adapting my style of play .

6. Yes, the rulebook is poorly wrtitten and often incomplete. Check the Captain's Log, the uFAQ put together by Becq for help.

So I don't think most of the negative reviews are WRONG*, per se.

I still love this game.



(* I think accusation of imbalance by the Dice Tower people were kind of unfair, and several time while they said "I get only one glory point for 3 turns work while he got 5 in one turn, the game is imbalanced" I thought to myself "well yeah, but you could have done this and this before and you would have done as good as him". Or "it takes ages to cross the map and so I spend 4 turns in a row doing just Sail and Tax". In now 29 games of SeaFall I think I have never done that, nor needed to. Don't blame the game when you're playing "wrong". )


On the other hand, I felt the Shut Up and Sit Down review was fair : they said
Quote:
SeaFall is never bad per se, but 15 games is long, and we realised there were other games we would rather like to play

which is indeed a possibility. A full campaign is a long thing, and it might be hard for a full group of player to stay committed. If you don't like it after 2 games, don't force it.

I STRONGLY recommend using erasable pens and not destroying anything. During game 1 and prologue everything you'll do will then be reversible (you'll just have to peel off the stickers put them), and if you don't like it, you should then be able to reset and resell or gift it to someone who will like it.



So will you like SeaFall ? Hard to say. What me and my buddies like :

- 2 of us love the fact that it is a game where you can make strategic choices and live with them long term, campaign like, from game to game. I don't know any other game that does that without being cooperative. We spend the week in between games planning (and of course plans often come crashing, which is frustrating but fun) ^^

- 3 of us (including the 2 other) love the conflict we get there

- All 4 of us love the competition

- My gf liked none of these things but still loved Exploring.

- our 4th player enjoys creating his own story and being this weird, down-on-his-luck Baron (he's never won once and is 32 points behind.) His ships have sunk several times. One of them is now called "The Glorious IV" because I, II, and III sunk. But he still fought back, had his hours of glory, and is having lot of fun)

- we all love naming things, advisors, Islands, colonies, atolls, ships...


During that time, my copy of Risk legacy is still on stasis at game 5. We like it, but really, we would much rather play SeaFall right now.
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Mark Blanco
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Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? (James 2:15-16)
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Re: Review of Seafall, 7 games in (no spoilers). We play 2P
Thank you for that! I had sort of avoided Seafall since it says 3p minimum on the box...but you've raised my interest. If possible, can you answer the following questions?

1 - Even though you enjoy the game 2p - can you say why you think the designers have the minimum player count at 3p?

2 - Have you played Merchants and Marauders? My wife and I enjoy that game a lot...is there a reason to purchase Seafall if we already have (and like) M&M?

Thanks!
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Re: Review of Seafall, 7 games in (no spoilers). We play 2P
I can speak to 2.

This is not M&M, and it has very little in common with M&M.
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Becq Starforged
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Re: Review of Seafall, 7 games in (no spoilers). We play 2P
Geese wrote:
Thank you for that! I had sort of avoided Seafall since it says 3p minimum on the box...but you've raised my interest. If possible, can you answer the following questions?

1 - Even though you enjoy the game 2p - can you say why you think the designers have the minimum player count at 3p?

2 - Have you played Merchants and Marauders? My wife and I enjoy that game a lot...is there a reason to purchase Seafall if we already have (and like) M&M?

Thanks!

The designers have addressed question 1. They've said that there is no game mechanic reason you can't play with two players, and that the only "problem" would be that resources would be relatively abundant and player interaction much lower. Some people may like this. And if you don't, there are things to do than might help.
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Nathanaël Dufour
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Re: Review of Seafall, 7 games in (no spoilers). We play 2P
Geese wrote:

1 - Even though you enjoy the game 2p - can you say why you think the designers have the minimum player count at 3p?


I believe 3+ would be better in terms of interaction, raids, alliances and betrayals...

On the other hand 2P reduces downtime a LOT.


I've never played M&M, sorry.
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Re: Review of Seafall, 7 games in (no spoilers). We play 2P
Two reviews (at least) have suggested silly hats, etc. This is always a bad sign. If I have to "play it up" and "really get into it" to make a game fun, the game just isn't fun.
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Re: Review of Seafall, 7 games in (no spoilers). We play 2P
Huh, I see it the other way around...
For example, I would never even think of "playing" up settlers of catan, however I have done it often while playing Arkham horror, and I know alot of people getting very much into the western vibe of Shadows of Brimstone by wearing hats and putting on appropriate sountracks.
I think the more the game has atmosfear and theming, the more you'd feel like getting into the fun of it.
Seafall might not be perfect, but I personally don't think theme is one of its issues...
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Re: Review of Seafall, 7 games in (no spoilers). We play 2P
Bob Loblaw wrote:
Huh, I see it the other way around...
For example, I would never even think of "playing" up settlers of catan, however I have done it often while playing Arkham horror, and I know alot of people getting very much into the western vibe of Shadows of Brimstone by wearing hats and putting on appropriate sountracks.
I think the more the game has atmosfear and theming, the more you'd feel like getting into the fun of it.
Seafall might not be perfect, but I personally don't think theme is one of its issues...


I agree 100%. It reminds me of shouting "It belongs in a museum!" During Fortune and Glory as I robbed my friend of his victory while we had Hanz Zimmer playing on Pandora. That game is definitely fun but it becomes more fun when you immerse yourself in it.
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Nathanaël Dufour
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Re: Review of Seafall, 7 games in (no spoilers). We play 2P
Updated : We're now 12 games in and still loving it a lot.

I would add two negatives to the list. (and several positives, but spoilered).
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Re: Review of Seafall, 7 games in (no spoilers). We play 2P. games in
Updated !

I have had the time to figure out things i didn't like and why.

On the other hand, I've also decided to buy a new copy (and to me that's a lot of money) to start a new campaign with 4 new players. Because I get a huge lead from the information I have, I'll adapt this by having them pick entries for me on the map, choices in the captain's booke and later on

Spoiler (click to reveal)
selecting what's inside a Tomb for me before each of my tuns (you can explore THIS Tomb, but its THIS you'll find


I haven't yet figured out a way to handle information I'm getting inside box 5 (because that's a real big advantage) but so far I have very little of this, and my gf new job means we have less time to play together, so we might catch up before that's really an issue. We'll see.
.
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Re: Review of Seafall, (7 games in) (actually 12 now) (no spoilers). We play 2P.
I'm not sure whether to be impressed or frightened that you managed to play five times (games 8-12) over a nine day period (Nov 14 through 23).

And that left you wanting more...
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Re: Review of Seafall, (7 games in) (actually 12 now) (no spoilers). We play 2P.
Becq wrote:
I'm not sure whether to be impressed or frightened that you managed to play five times (games 8-12) over a nine day period (Nov 14 through 23).

And that left you wanting more...


Well my gf and I usually play between 22 and midnight, when I guess most people would be watching TV or something. So yeah, one game every two nights makes 5 games in 9 days ^^
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Re: Review of Seafall, (7 games in) (actually 12 now) (no spoilers). We play 2P.
Sounds like you have a keeper!
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Re: Review of Seafall, (7 games in) (actually 12 now) (no spoilers). We play 2P.
Osuniev wrote:

8. When reading the captain's booke, have the player to your right read the choices for you. It will make you and them more focused, instead of one player mumbling it and the others losing interest into what's going on.


We started doing this yesterday and it's working out really well! Instead of one player fumbling between the book and collecting their rewards, two players (often a third player placing a sticker) were engaged and the play moved more quickly.

Thanks for the tip.
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Nathanaël Dufour
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Re: Review of Seafall, (after 17 games) (no spoilers). We play 2P.
lactamaeon wrote:
Osuniev wrote:

8. When reading the captain's booke, have the player to your right read the choices for you. It will make you and them more focused, instead of one player mumbling it and the others losing interest into what's going on.


We started doing this yesterday and it's working out really well! Instead of one player fumbling between the book and collecting their rewards, two players (often a third player placing a sticker) were engaged and the play moved more quickly.

Thanks for the tip.


I am glad it worked out for you ! For my second campaign, I made a copy of the Explorer's map : whenever someone explores, one player chooses and crosses the entry (and puts the stickers), another reads, the active player makes the choices, and finally the 4th player prepares his turn. Same for the milestones with one person writing it down. It works fine and no one is getting bored.

For those interested, I played game 17 of our 2P campaign and I THINK the end should be in the next 2 games, unless there is a big twist I haven't anticipated. So far everything I said is still true.
I think it could have stopped much earlier (in a 4P game, I think game 12 would have been possible), but my GF and I are spending a lot of time blocking each other instead of trying to reach the end, mostly because we enjoy it.
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Re: Review of Seafall, (after 17 games) (no spoilers). We play 2P.
Ok, so my girlfriend and I finished the SeaFall campaign earlier today. We had a BLAST. Even during that last game (it was our 21st !!), when we finally had a precise idea of what to do, the sense of mistery remained, and OMG that final box... I was expecting SOMETHING, but this blew our minds.

I'll post a more detailed review of everything but this was GREAT. And I can't wait for the next game, later tonight, because yes, the game is playable after you finished the campaign, and there are fresh things in it.
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Re: Review of Seafall, (after 17 games) (no spoilers). We play 2P.
Thanks for this ongoing review of your 2P experience. I have been eying this game to play with my wife, and you have alleviated the concerns I had. Looking forward to this!
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Re: Review of Seafall, (after 17 games) (no spoilers). We play 2P.
What a fantastic and exhaustive review!

Thanks!
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Nathanaël Dufour
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Lille
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Re: Review of Seafall, (after 17 games) (no spoilers). We play 2P.
Okay so here are my updated thoughts, two months later, 7 games into my second campaign (4P).

I still love this game very much and everyone on both campaigns enjoyed it as well. After reading many negative reviews, I'd like to concede a few points :

1. Yes, the game is swingy. Often when you win, you win by a lot, because you do a big glory related And yes, players have been frustrated with this. If losing from time to time through a bit of bad luck is very painful for you, don't play Seafall.

2. No, the game isn't unbalanced. The catch up mechanisms work fine. But if a player consistently plays (a lot) better, he will win (a lot) more often. That's a feature, not a bug.

3. Yes, the results of the exploration of the islands are often kind of bland and vague. I understand how it can be a disappointment. There's a real story behind SeaFall, but the bulk of that story is almost entirely contained in boxes 5 (opened by games 7/8 I guess ?) and 6. In the meantime, that story exists mostly by how YOU (the players) build it among yourselves. And I agree with the negative reviews that SeaFall could be order of magnitudes better if this was managed better.

(It still good enough that my girlfriend, which ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY cared for Exploration, loved all 21 games of our campaign, and wants to join the 4P-campaign to do some more exploring.)

4. Yes, the game can be long. But it doesn't HAVE to be. Twice did we do 3 games in a row in less than 6 hours, while eating, discussing etc.
Downtime is no big deal if you organize things (one player plays, another reads him the book outloud, another updates the Explorer's Map/writes down Milestones/places stickers/updates glory, and the 4th player is preparing his next turn).
If you're often victim of Analysis Paralysis, maybe warn the others before the campaign.

5. The game DOES throw bad things at you, forcing to change your strategy from game to game. Pandemic Legacy did the same, but it was a co-op, so there wasn't that frustration of "Argh I'm getting screwed !" I personally liked it (despite being on the receiving end), and enjoyed changing and adapting my style of play .

6. Yes, the rulebook is poorly wrtitten and often incomplete. Check the Captain's Log, the uFAQ put together by Becq for help.

So I don't think most of the negative reviews are WRONG*, per se.

I still love this game.



(* I think accusation of imbalance by the Dice Tower people were kind of unfair, and several time while they said "I get only one glory point for 3 turns work while he got 5 in one turn, the game is imbalanced" I thought to myself "well yeah, but you could have done this and this before and you would have done as good as him". Or "it takes ages to cross the map and so I spend 4 turns in a row doing just Sail and Tax". In now 29 games of SeaFall I think I have never done that, nor needed to. Don't blame the game when you're playing "wrong". )


On the other hand, I felt the Shut Up and Sit Down review was fair : they said
Quote:
SeaFall is never bad per se, but 15 games is long, and we realised there were other games we would rather like to play

which is indeed a possibility. A full campaign is a long thing, and it might be hard for a full group of player to stay committed. If you don't like it after 2 games, don't force it.

I STRONGLY recommend using erasable pens and not destroying anything. During game 1 and prologue everything you'll do will then be reversible (you'll just have to peel off the stickers put them), and if you don't like it, you should then be able to reset and resell or gift it to someone who will like it.



So will you like SeaFall ? Hard to say. What me and my buddies like :

- 2 of us love the fact that it is a game where you can make strategic choices and live with them long term, campaign like, from game to game. I don't know any other game that does that without being cooperative. We spend the week in between games planning (and of course plans often come crashing, which is frustrating but fun) ^^

- 3 of us (including the 2 other) love the conflict we get there

- All 4 of us love the competition

- My gf liked none of these things but still loved Exploring.

- our 4th player enjoys creating his own story and being this weird, down-on-his-luck Baron (he's never won once and is 32 points behind.) His ships have sunk several times. One of them is now called "The Glorious IV" because I, II, and III sunk. But he still fought back, had his hours of glory, and is having lot of fun)

- we all love naming things, advisors, Islands, colonies, atolls, ships...


During that time, my copy of Risk legacy is still on stasis at game 5. We like it, but really, we would much rather play SeaFall right now.
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Lewis Williams
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Re: Review of Seafall, 2P and 4P (EDITED after 2 campaigns and 30+ games !)
Is chart 15, the chart needed to find the final region on the map in the furthermost western portion. And if so, when can I use it. I'm not saying where I found it, but I have had it for 2 or 3 games now.
 
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Nathanaël Dufour
France
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Re: Review of Seafall, 2P and 4P (EDITED after 2 campaigns and 30+ games !)
Lewd wrote:
Is chart 15, the chart needed to find the final region on the map in the furthermost western portion. And if so, when can I use it. I'm not saying where I found it, but I have had it for 2 or 3 games now.

Spoiler (click to reveal)

I have no idea what's chart 15, you'd need to be more specific. The chart for the final island is a chart +5 with the wave symbol on it. You can use it to explore that final island, but it's difficult with only one. If you need more information I suggest you ask that by PM or in the Rules forum
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Charles Waterman
United States
Commerce Township
Michigan
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Re: Review of Seafall, 2P and 4P (EDITED after 2 campaigns and 30+ games !)
YourHighnessness wrote:
Two reviews (at least) have suggested silly hats, etc. This is always a bad sign. If I have to "play it up" and "really get into it" to make a game fun, the game just isn't fun.


This is a great example of the fact that gamers are not created equal. This sense of wanting to do this to up the roleplaying aspect of the game is **exactly** the kind of game experience I'm looking for. Just guessing, but how do you feel about Cosmic Encounter? *grin*
 
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Charles Waterman
United States
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Re: Review of Seafall, 2P and 4P (EDITED after 2 campaigns and 30+ games !)
Osuniev wrote:

During that time, my copy of Risk legacy is still on stasis at game 5. We like it, but really, we would much rather play SeaFall right now.


Yeah - we finished game 8 a year ago (opened the last of the big boxes and discovered the dreadful secret!) However, since everything but one packet is opened now, I have less energy to get the remaining memnbers of the Risk:Legacy gang back together!

Definitely looking forward to starting our Seafall campaign though - hopefully this week!

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Becq Starforged
United States
Cerritos
California
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Re: Review of Seafall, 2P and 4P (EDITED after 2 campaigns and 30+ games !)
Good luck!
 
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Maria Vilensky
Israel
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Hi,
Did you implement any tweaks for resources, glory, etc for 2p in your games? Sorry if I missed it somewhere, but I could not find any mention of it, and considering doing a 2p campaign I'm very interested in your input.
Thanks!
 
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