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Subject: Worst Spellbook Ever rss

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Greg Purcell
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Wendy Adams and Roland Banks cower in the hallway as the dog-like sniffing of a hunting qhoul reaches their ears from the attic. Trembling, Wendy Adams spreads out the implements of a spell.

Roland: Hurry, child! Hurry!

Wendy: It says here this room has plus-one shroud.

Roland: What's that? Consult the Necronomicon! Hurry!

Wendy (reads Necronomicon): It doesn't say.

Roland: Seriously?

Wendy: It's not in the Necronomicon glossary either. Oh wait, no. This is so stupid. It's actually in the Necronomicon for Beginners. It's actually just the number that describes how hard it is to be intelligent in this Hallway. Okay. The spell failed.

Roland: You'd think they'd have that in the main Necronomicon. Or the glossary.

Wendy: Well, we know now.

A horrible stench, as the ghoul enters the hallway.

Roland: Oh no! Is it engaged with us?

Wendy: Well, he would be if we hadn't known about him before.

Roland: But it's that same ghoul we shot before.

Wendy (checks Necronomicon): This is complicated. (Reads) I don't know.

Roland: Can I shoot him?

Wendy: Yes.

Roland fires his .38. Splinters of wood explode into the darkness.

Wendy: You missed him.

Roland: Well, good bye Wendy. It was nice knowing you.

Wendy: He's still not engaged, or anything.

Roland: Oh. Is that true?

Wendy: I think so.

Roland: Seriously, this is the worst rulebook Abdul Alhazred has ever written.

Wendy: I agree.

Roland: Can I just resign?

Wendy (Reads Necronomicon): It doesn't seem to matter. (Continues Reading). There doesn't seem to be any difference between "dying" and resigning." It says see "Activate Action on page 10."

Roland: But that's just a verb modifying a noun form of itself!

Wendy: I know Roland, I know.

Roland (Eyes widening): Nouns...v..verbs... the cosmos..."uncoordinated contents of the mind..." Ah ha ha ha!

Roland claws own face off. The world ends.
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Andrew Keddie
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I seriously don't understand some of these references. If a Hunter moves into your location you best believe it's engaged with you (it's not moving unless it's ready, and a ready creature always engages).

Resigning is better than taking lethal dmaage because you don't take Trauma.

Shroud values are covered in both L2P and RR manuals.
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Steve Jones
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Amusing read, even if some of the rules interpretations (see above) are a little off.
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Greg Purcell
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
I seriously don't understand some of these references. If a Hunter moves into your location you best believe it's engaged with you (it's not moving unless it's ready, and a ready creature always engages).

Resigning is better than taking lethal dmaage because you don't take Trauma.

Shroud values are covered in both L2P and RR manuals.


Roland Banks: I defy you to find a listing for "Shroud" in the main Necronomicon.

Wendy Adams: Defy all you want. I went insane the minute I opened the book.

Roland Banks checks online for an answer.

Necronomicon Geek User "Ghoul88": You're stupid.

Roland Banks: Yes, but am I engaged with you, though? The Necronomicon isn't clear.

Necornomicon Geek User "Ghoul88": Duuuuhhhhh...

Roland Banks: ...duuuuuuuhhhhhhh....

Both go insane.


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Greg Purcell
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From his mountain aerie in Minnesota, Abdul Alzared whips his minions.

Abdul Alzared: Work! Work! We must have the Necronomicon finished in time for the holiday season!

Ghoul 1: I have a question about the wording of the rule for Resig...

Abdul Alzared throws the Ghoul to the other ghouls, who devour him.

Ghoul 2: He had a legitimate question.

Abdul Alzared: That may be so. But who do you think is buying the Necronomicon?

Ghoul 2: Other ghouls, mostly.

Abdul Alzared: And what do other ghouls do to ghouls that ask questions?

Ghoul 2: Well, it makes us feel stupid, sir, so we eat them.

Abdul Alzared: So, then, no more questions.

Ghoul 2: It's just that, if humans were writing a glossary entry for the rules for Resign, they probably would have included the purpose of Resignation.

Abdul Alzared: Yes, yes, well those rules are under Campaign Rules on page 5.

Ghoul 2: Yes... but you see how simple it would have been to include a cross reference to the Campaign Rules here?

Abdul Alzared: But there's a cross reference to "Activating Actions" instead.

Ghoul 2: Exactly.

Abdul Alzared: Which doesn't make any...sense.

Ghoul 2: Right. But this other way does...

Abdul: ...make sense. I see. Ghoul? Minion?

Ghoul 2: Yes, sir"

Abdul Alzared: I...I think I'm going to go invest in a 401k plan...

Ghoul 2: Oh no. Oh, I'm sorry sir.

Abdul: ...and retire by the time I'm 55...

Ghoul 2: I'm so sorry.

Abdul Alzared goes sane.

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Nushura
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I do not know how to classify this as the Worst Worst Rules complain or the Best Worst one

Like Andrew, I am not clear on what part of the rules are not clear, but in any case it was a good read....so my answer will be "I suggest you reach into the minds of the creator to have access to a hive version of the Necronomicon. IF you query the great one he will give you whatever you need" (AKA, go to FFG's website, download the digital version and use Control+F to find whatever term you do not understand).
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Greg Purcell
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Nushura wrote:
I do not know how to classify this as the Worst Worst Rules complain or the Best Worst one

Like Andrew, I am not clear on what part of the rules are not clear, but in any case it was a good read....so my answer will be "I suggest you reach into the minds of the creator to have access to a hive version of the Necronomicon. IF you query the great one he will give you whatever you need" (AKA, go to FFG's website, download the digital version and use Control+F to find whatever term you do not understand).


*Breaks character* There's a category error here. I'm not saying the rules don't exist (though in certain edge cases regarding Engagement I'm not sure they do). I'm saying they are very badly organized and written, and that they coordinate terribly with the introductory scenario. As a reference, the books are abysmal. I don't understand why anyone would bother defending them.

There are 118 rules questions on BGG, and the game hasn't been out for a week.
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Nushura
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Agree to disagree. I find the split into two books great. Perfect when I have a grasp on the rules and I miss one small thing.

And the 112 rules posts go together with the 700 "how many cores do I need" question that follows from people that do not use the search function

EDIT: in fact someone just made the same post as you...within the HOUR! Yet another proof that people do not look at the forums before posting
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Craig Sawatzky
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I will have to agree with Nushura. I found these books a breath of fresh air, especially if you compare it to the LOTR LCG. (I think we are at 15,000 pages of rules questions there). A lot of the questions asked here are usually answered quickly with direct references to the rulebook/LTP guide.
I will also agree with the OP that there are certainly some areas that could have been done a bit better, especially for those who are new to LCG's, but all in all I think they hit it out of the park.
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Rob Byers
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Very delightful LTP and RR imho. I had no issues getting a couple of games in. It probably helped that I read through the LTP guide as I played a full scenario.
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GorillaGrody wrote:
There are 118 rules questions on BGG, and the game hasn't been out for a week.


And 80% of those have been the same questions asked over and over, as is typical for BBG (or any gaming site).
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Scourn1
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GorillaGrody wrote:
Nushura wrote:
I do not know how to classify this as the Worst Worst Rules complain or the Best Worst one

Like Andrew, I am not clear on what part of the rules are not clear, but in any case it was a good read....so my answer will be "I suggest you reach into the minds of the creator to have access to a hive version of the Necronomicon. IF you query the great one he will give you whatever you need" (AKA, go to FFG's website, download the digital version and use Control+F to find whatever term you do not understand).


*Breaks character* There's a category error here. I'm not saying the rules don't exist (though in certain edge cases regarding Engagement I'm not sure they do). I'm saying they are very badly organized and written, and that they coordinate terribly with the introductory scenario. As a reference, the books are abysmal. I don't understand why anyone would bother defending them.

There are 118 rules questions on BGG, and the game hasn't been out for a week.


That's a horrible statistic. Most of those rules questions (like MOST games posted on here) are people being pure lazy and don't read or look for themselves. Yea, FFG has a FAQ posted, but ive read posts like "Can I put 2 of a special item in my deck?" "do exhausted enemies retaliate" "defeating enemies with doom tokens". All of this is CLEARLY put into the learn to play and the appendix book. Their rulebooks have been like this for many of their games. They do a learn to play and a in depth rule book for reference. I know many people who have had no problem understanding this, or how their games work.

Your laziness of reading does not equal the books being "abysmal"
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Greg Purcell
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scourn1 wrote:
GorillaGrody wrote:
Nushura wrote:
I do not know how to classify this as the Worst Worst Rules complain or the Best Worst one

Like Andrew, I am not clear on what part of the rules are not clear, but in any case it was a good read....so my answer will be "I suggest you reach into the minds of the creator to have access to a hive version of the Necronomicon. IF you query the great one he will give you whatever you need" (AKA, go to FFG's website, download the digital version and use Control+F to find whatever term you do not understand).


*Breaks character* There's a category error here. I'm not saying the rules don't exist (though in certain edge cases regarding Engagement I'm not sure they do). I'm saying they are very badly organized and written, and that they coordinate terribly with the introductory scenario. As a reference, the books are abysmal. I don't understand why anyone would bother defending them.

There are 118 rules questions on BGG, and the game hasn't been out for a week.


That's a horrible statistic. Most of those rules questions (like MOST games posted on here) are people being pure lazy and don't read or look for themselves. Yea, FFG has a FAQ posted, but ive read posts like "Can I put 2 of a special item in my deck?" "do exhausted enemies retaliate" "defeating enemies with doom tokens". All of this is CLEARLY put into the learn to play and the appendix book. Their rulebooks have been like this for many of their games. They do a learn to play and a in depth rule book for reference. I know many people who have had no problem understanding this, or how their games work.

Your laziness of reading does not equal the books being "abysmal"


Exclusion is not clarity, which is where at least two of your examples fall. And you're being a bully.

You (and many of the posters above) seriously have to confront the weird urge you have to tell people they haven't experienced something they have experienced. There are places where the trail of references circle around to dead ends. That's bad referencing. Just because you feel superior for having parsed through bad writing doesn't make the writing good.
 
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Jean-Philippe Thériault
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GorillaGrody wrote:


There are 118 rules questions on BGG, and the game hasn't been out for a week.


Even as I agree with you on the abyssal organization of the rulebook (I think that format works great for actual boardgames, for a CCG/LCG please refer to the Magic Comprehensive Rules, which is basically the Gold Standard), I think that argument is not very solid, because the number of rules questions threads on BGG depends more on game popularity than actual complexity. A good example is Pandemic Legacy, which is basically a super simple game with well organized rulebook, and that got a zillion rules threads in the early days as well.
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Greg Purcell
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XDarkAngelX wrote:
GorillaGrody wrote:


There are 118 rules questions on BGG, and the game hasn't been out for a week.


Even as I agree with you on the abyssal organization of the rulebook (I think that format works great for actual boardgames, for a CCG/LCG please refer to the Magic Comprehensive Rules, which is basically the Gold Standard), I think that argument is not very solid, because the number of rules questions threads on BGG depends more on game popularity than actual complexity. A good example is Pandemic Legacy, which is basically a super simple game with well organized rulebook, and that got a zillion rules threads in the early days as well.


I guess I agree, but the argument "reference guides are designed to help you reference things" wasn't working.cry
 
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Nushura
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GorillaGrody wrote:

Exclusion is not clarity, which is where at least two of your examples fall. And you're being a bully.

You (and many of the posters above) seriously have to confront the weird urge you have to tell people they haven't experienced something they have experienced. There are places where the trail of references circle around to dead ends. That's bad referencing. Just because you feel superior for having parsed through bad writing doesn't make the writing good.


First notice that no one in this thread (or anywhere that I know of) said "you are not being confused"". I even tried to follow the spirit of your thread and answered in-character. What we are saying is that "you are more to blame for your own confusion than FFG".

The reason is that many people love to watch youtube videos on how to play or skip portions of the rulebook before carefully reading the rulebook. If you are not one of those then....then you are a minority.

Now as for bad referencing I simply disagree. I write technical reports for a living and as such I have to make "dense" information clear. There are many ways of doing so, but none is easy. A clear example on someone who thought hard on how to make their rulebooks easy to read is CGE games. They are full of jokes and easy to read. I am fan number 1 of them.

BUT (and this is a big but), the rulebook has two purposes: obviously someone will read the rules to learn how to play, but then during the course of the game people have specific questions (like your "what is +1 shroud that a location can have?"). A rulebook is good if with a quick look you know where to find the answer...and for that the rules reference is amazing. FFG Tailors to this second part which (in the long term) is what the rulebook will be most frequently accessed for.

Could it be improved? Obviously (but then again, what can't be improved?). Is it so bad that deserves the "Worst spellbook ever" title? or even a "bad rulebook" title? I seriously doubt so.
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Joe Robertson
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Shroud Value - Learn to Play page 10, along with a clear picture of where the value is taken from.

Enemy engagement - Learn to Play page 13, entire sidebar labeled 'Enemy Engagement'

Resign is not mentioned because it is not really an option in the first scenario (if I recall correctly), so no reason to cover it in the Learn to Play. It is meant to be looked up in the rules reference when first encountered, like most advanced items.

Not saving the rulebooks are perfect, but they are really well done. I wish I understood why people keep talking about having issues with them. I would bet its more due to popularity then actually rulebook issues.
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Donny Behne
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If you don't like the game, move on. Write a negative review about it if you think people need to know something other than an echo chamber of positivity. I'm not sure how this is effectively communicating your point, it just seems like you're exerting energy disliking something when you could spend that energy liking something else.

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Andrew Keddie
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GorillaGrody wrote:
Roland Banks: I defy you to find a listing for "Shroud" in the main Necronomicon.


You won't find a listing for "shroud" any more than you'll find a listing for an enemy's health or evade value. Because those aren't values that should require an entire entry to themselves, once you know the basic mechanics of the game from the L2P manual. You will however find "shroud" referenced multiple times in the RR.

Difficulty (skill tests) wrote:
When investigating a location, the base difficulty
of the skill test is the location’s shroud value.


Investigate Action wrote:
Each time an investigator takes this action, he or she
makes an intellect test against the shroud value of
that location (see “Skill Tests” on page 18).


Location Cards wrote:
Locations enter play in an “unrevealed” state, so that
the side with no shroud value and/or clue value is
faceup. Do not read the “revealed” side at this time.

A location with its shroud/clue value side
faceup is in the “revealed” state.


Appendix IV: Card Anatomy wrote:
Scenario Card Anatomy Key

11. Shroud: Determines
the difficulty of a skill
test to investigate
this location.


So really, I think there's MORE than enough entries to cover what the Shroud value of a location is and does.
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David Ainsworth
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Quite amusing. I had no problems learning the game so I can't share your frustrations, but yeah, quite funny.
 
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Evan Stegman
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GorillaGrody wrote:
... And you're being a bully. ...


No, he's not.

'Being a bully' does not mean 'being harshly critical' or even 'being very mean'.

It means someone strong using that strength to somehow harass someone weak or make them do something against their will.

There is no power imbalance here.
 
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Gavin
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I love the format of the OP, looks like you had a lot of fun writing it, and I had a lot of fun reading it. I'm not going to pile on about "how easy" the rules are, but I will offer my opinion that splitting the rules between two books is good and bad at the same time. It's good insofar as actually playing through the "learn to play" book step by step gives a much firmer foundation of the rules, with references to the RRG as needed putting it all in one book can lead to an even bigger mess.

As an example, thanks to the 2 book format I picked up Warhammer Quest very quickly, and I'm STILL not entirely sure I'm playing Netrunner properly...

That being said, it can be a little frustrating once you are "done" learning to play, you still have to reference that book for the all important examples of how something works, rather than the wall of text that is the RRG.

Like I said, good and bad, but I ultimately prefer the 2 book solution. Some learn to play videos like FFG does for other games would be nice though.
 
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