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Subject: Anyone worried about balance? rss

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Travis Belisle
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I was a WHFB player (WoC), and I understand GW's issue with balancing all the races. I know we all want our favorite race and play style to at least be competitive. Is that going to be an issue with this core set with the bash'em Orks v Humans who can do everything but do it just okay? Would getting the Skaven box ASAP be ideal to go against the bash of da Orks? Do Humans stand a chance against either?
 
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This game probably has more playtest data than any other game that uses asymmetrical play.

The in-the-box teams don't have quite so much data on them, but I doubt they are far off from a good balance.
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Ron Price
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Blood Bowl is, by design, imbalanced. Humans and Orcs are, as you said, sort of middling teams along the bash---dash continuum. In one-offs, they're well balanced. With even a little development (as in a league), I think you'll find that the general consensus is that Humans get outstripped pretty quickly. The Orcs' high armor and better strength will usually allow them to outbash the Humans, and the Humans' mostly average speed and skill is tough to work with.

Skaven are a pretty good choice to outrun your opponent, which allows them to give Orcs touble if they can survive; they're cheap, which makes up for their fragility some. The Runners advance fast.

In a league setting, no team is ever completely ruled out due to the inducement system. Remember also that if you're joining a league with players who aren't new, you'll almost certainly be facing a much larger complement of teams than just Humans, Orcs, and Skaven, all with unique strengths and weaknesses.
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Rauli Kettunen
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Anyone that's played Halflings knows they are mad OP whistle .

Offensively Plump that is. They do go splat nicely though devil .
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Travis Belisle
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My game group would be coming into this completely new. I've played a handful of games on Steam. Had no clue how the rules worked really. I did a lot of blocking and blitzing with Skaven, and was afraid to dodge. So yea... newb.

I imagine our first season being run without any upgrades or casualties that keep players out of the next game. We would probably incorporate that kind of stuff in later seasons. I was just hoping that they'd be balanced out of the box for straight up, no modification, head to head combat/play.
 
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John Middleton
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If play balance is super important, GW games might not be for you.


Just accept that they are for fun, not competition and you will be much happier.
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Clinton Rice
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I am not worried in the slightest about balance in blood bowl. I am also not worried about zombie penguins, bigfoot, martians or anything else that doesnt exist.

Blood Bowl is a game where you can face fat halflings up against bloodthirsty ogres and see what happens. It is not a game where the halflings have a 50/50 chance of winning. Why should they?

Some coaches enjoy the extra challenge. Imagine building a complicated rube goldberg machine with fans and bowling balls and hamster wheels to toast your bread in the morning. You could do it yourself much easier and more often than not the machine wont work. But that time it does...is so much more amazing. It's like that.
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Rauli Kettunen
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bcbandit wrote:
Had no clue how the rules worked really. I did a lot of blocking and blitzing with Skaven,


Nothing wrong with that, hell, probably encouraged style of play for Skaven. Why? Every opposing player down or even just pushed back is one less potential Block next turn against your squishy AV7. Limiting the number of Block actions (since you can only do one Blitz per turn) is essential for Skaven and WElves in order to survive with their rice paper-esque AV (one layer only). As long as you're not throwing constant 2d-against blocks, should be fine.

 
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Geoff Watson
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KoalaXav wrote:

Blood Bowl is a game where you can face fat halflings up against bloodthirsty ogres and see what happens. It is not a game where the halflings have a 50/50 chance of winning. Why should they?


Halflings are a weak team, but Ogres is actually one of their better matchups. The Treemen are stronger than the Ogres, and the Halflings are stronger than the ogre team Snotlings. The problem is that the ogres get more Ogres than the Halflings get Trees.
Hell of a lot easier than versus Dwarves or Norse anyway.


I'd prefer if the Blood Bowl teams were better balanced, but it's still a great game.
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Clinton Rice
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Geoff Watson wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:

Blood Bowl is a game where you can face fat halflings up against bloodthirsty ogres and see what happens. It is not a game where the halflings have a 50/50 chance of winning. Why should they?


Halflings are a weak team, but Ogres is actually one of their better matchups. The Treemen are stronger than the Ogres, and the Halflings are stronger than the ogre team Snotlings. The problem is that the ogres get more Ogres than the Halflings get Trees.
Hell of a lot easier than versus Dwarves or Norse anyway.


I'd prefer if the Blood Bowl teams were better balanced, but it's still a great game.


Even though I have never played them, I knew when I posted it that ogres were also a suboptimal team. I made the comparison I did more for art than truth. Postulating on a match between halflings and norse does not do nearly as good of a job as conveying the scale of mismatched pairings possible in Blood Bowl to those who have never played. So read my post poetically rather than running the numbers.
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Marcel van der pol
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KoalaXav wrote:
Geoff Watson wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:

Blood Bowl is a game where you can face fat halflings up against bloodthirsty ogres and see what happens. It is not a game where the halflings have a 50/50 chance of winning. Why should they?


Halflings are a weak team, but Ogres is actually one of their better matchups. The Treemen are stronger than the Ogres, and the Halflings are stronger than the ogre team Snotlings. The problem is that the ogres get more Ogres than the Halflings get Trees.
Hell of a lot easier than versus Dwarves or Norse anyway.


I'd prefer if the Blood Bowl teams were better balanced, but it's still a great game.


Even though I have never played them, I knew when I posted it that ogres were also a suboptimal team. I made the comparison I did more for art than truth. Postulating on a match between halflings and norse does not do nearly as good of a job as conveying the scale of mismatched pairings possible in Blood Bowl to those who have never played. So read my post poetically rather than running the numbers.


In general, not all teams are created equal. Some teams are definitely not as strong as others. There are plenty of websites out there evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of each team. I rather doubt that the new release will change a lot; maybe tweak a stat here and there (Human catchers slightly cheaper for example).

Strong Teams:
- Orcs
- Humans
- Wood Elves
- Dwarves
- Skaven
- Chaos
- Undead

Weaker Teams:
Pretty much everything else.

Note that playing a weaker team in a league will most likely mean you don't win the league, but that doesn't mean it is not fun to play them. You can have a lot of fun playing Goblins and watching your Chainsaw Goblin trip over his own feet and landing on his (running) Chainsaw, killing himself (assuming that the random chaos of playing Goblins is your idea of fun of course).

Other reason for playing a weaker team is for the challenge; if you are a very good Bloodbowl Coach you might grow tired of playing one of those Strong teams and instead go for the challenge of trying to play Halflings and actually win some games in the league.
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My understanding is that some teams are better in the long hawl, some in short term, some more forgiving than others, some are more challenging for newbies.

Pretty much the only weak teams are the oddballs, the smallest and most recently official teams - Goblins, Halflings, Ogres, Chaos Pact, Underworld, Vampires, I think there's one more.
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W. Beljo
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FYI, the BB Tier Systematic

"Note first that some of these teams may seem to be "overrated" or "underrated" to many players, and secondly, that there is a great gulf of opinion about how effective the newest teams in the game are. As such, this is simply an example given, rather than an endorsement thereof. Its also worth pointing out that many of the higher tier teams are also regarded as being among the most difficult to play: access to a wide variety of skills and players does not necessarily equate to being a good team for a player starting to play for the first time. Asterixes (**) indicate that team tier association can often vary significantly for the particular team so marked.


Tier I (Strongest - usually the most access to necessary skills, and the most likely to do well over the course of a typical season): Amazon, Dark Elf, Dwarf, Elf, High Elf, Human**, Norse, Ork, Skaven, Undead, Wood Elf

Tier II (Average - these teams, in the words of one player 'have clear strategic options, but often lack the starting skills to successfully implement them): Chaos, Chaos Dwarf, Khemri, Lizardman, Necromantic, Nurgle**, Slann**, Vampire**

Tier III (Lowest - these teams can win, but lack essential starting skills, or have significant weaknesses that make them less likely to win over the course of a typical season): Chaos Pact**, Goblin, Halfling, Ogre, Underworld"

More Info can be found here:
http://bbowl.wikia.com/wiki/Current_Blood_Bowl_Teams
http://bbtactics.com/strategy/races/
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DegenerateElite wrote:
If play balance is super important, GW games might not be for you.


Just accept that they are for fun, not competition and you will be much happier.
This should be quoted on the Blood Bowl page here at BGG forevermore.

It feels like this new edition of BB is attracting a lot of BGG eyeballs, but those folks need to know: This is not a finely-tuned Euro. It's a fun, bloody, chummy, smacky game best enjoyed amongst friends (or enemies) and attempting to focus on "balance" right out of the gate ensures you are focusing on all the wrong aspects.

Enjoy it for what it is.
Just some fair warning so you don't have a bad time.
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fightcitymayor wrote:
It feels like this new edition of BB is attracting a lot of BGG eyeballs, but those folks need to know: This is not a finely-tuned Euro.

I think the dice and miniatures already pointed that out to them.
 
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Ryan R
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cornixt wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
It feels like this new edition of BB is attracting a lot of BGG eyeballs, but those folks need to know: This is not a finely-tuned Euro.

I think the dice and miniatures already pointed that out to them.


You would think that and you'd still be surprised..
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Andrew Bird
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I'm more worried about people who worry about balance.
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David Munch
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There are some teams that really would benefit from a boost, such as goblins, ogres and halflings, but other than that, most teams have their strengths and weaknesses.

It should be pointed out though, that these variations are most apparent during league or tournament play. In one on one games you play for fun, and even a halfling team, with the right rolls, can beat an orc team.
 
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Adam Harvey
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Just... LOL balance.

It's friggen blood bowl. Play hard, use whatever you can to your advantage and hope you don't roll crap.
 
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Brian Nors Jensen
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I do not want balance, I want FUN!
 
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The Lord of Dust
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Short answer- Skaven, Orcs, and Humans are all good starter teams.

If fast scores are most important to you, pick Skaven
If toughness and hitting ability have priority, go with Orcs
If you want a team that can adapt to most opponents well, go with Humans.

Long answer- the teams Marcel posted as strong (Orcs, Humans, Wood Elves, Dwarves, Skaven, Chaos, Undead) are all good starting teams. I would add Lizardmen to the list, though only just so.

Besides the three already mentioned, the other teams in that list are fairly straightforward to learn. Wood Elves run a pass-heavy game, Dwarves, Chaos, and Undead are bash-heavy teams in varying degrees, and Lizardmen play like a cross between Skaven and Chaos (some strong but unskilled hitters mixed with fragile but squirmy runners).

The only caveat I have about these teams is that Chaos and Lizardmen tend to do better the longer the season goes- they often have a rough start.

Most of the other teams are harder to learn, though they have more potential in the hands of a skilled Coach. Then there's the Goblin team- they tend to do badly, but they will probably result in more laughter and memorable moments than any other team. This is actually by design- Blood Bowl teams were created with multiple skill levels in mind, so that as a player gets better, they can move to a harder-to-master team to keep their interest. I hope that GW will make this clearer if and when they re-release more teams.
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Clinton Rice
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dustcrusher wrote:
Then there's the Goblin team- they tend to do badly, but they will probably result in more laughter and memorable moments than any other team.


But those lovely cheerleaders more than make up for it!

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marcelvdpol wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:
Geoff Watson wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:

Blood Bowl is a game where you can face fat halflings up against bloodthirsty ogres and see what happens. It is not a game where the halflings have a 50/50 chance of winning. Why should they?


Halflings are a weak team, but Ogres is actually one of their better matchups. The Treemen are stronger than the Ogres, and the Halflings are stronger than the ogre team Snotlings. The problem is that the ogres get more Ogres than the Halflings get Trees.
Hell of a lot easier than versus Dwarves or Norse anyway.


I'd prefer if the Blood Bowl teams were better balanced, but it's still a great game.


Even though I have never played them, I knew when I posted it that ogres were also a suboptimal team. I made the comparison I did more for art than truth. Postulating on a match between halflings and norse does not do nearly as good of a job as conveying the scale of mismatched pairings possible in Blood Bowl to those who have never played. So read my post poetically rather than running the numbers.


In general, not all teams are created equal. Some teams are definitely not as strong as others. There are plenty of websites out there evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of each team. I rather doubt that the new release will change a lot; maybe tweak a stat here and there (Human catchers slightly cheaper for example).

Strong Teams:
- Orcs
- Humans
- Wood Elves
- Dwarves
- Skaven
- Chaos
- Undead

Weaker Teams:
Pretty much everything else.

Note that playing a weaker team in a league will most likely mean you don't win the league, but that doesn't mean it is not fun to play them. You can have a lot of fun playing Goblins and watching your Chainsaw Goblin trip over his own feet and landing on his (running) Chainsaw, killing himself (assuming that the random chaos of playing Goblins is your idea of fun of course).

Other reason for playing a weaker team is for the challenge; if you are a very good Bloodbowl Coach you might grow tired of playing one of those Strong teams and instead go for the challenge of trying to play Halflings and actually win some games in the league.


I have only played a few hundred games or so with various teams, but I think you might have downplayed the Lizardmen and Chaos Dwarves. Lizardmen can field the Saurus, one of the best stock shock guys in the game. Fleet of foot with 4 str. Skinks can almost do a one touch scoring drive. Chaos Dwarves have arguably the best unit in all of Blood Bowl, the Bull Centaur is an absolute terror on the pitch.

Overall each race is strong against some and weak against some.
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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BudsBalkan wrote:
FYI, the BB Tier Systematic

"Note first that some of these teams may seem to be "overrated" or "underrated" to many players, and secondly, that there is a great gulf of opinion about how effective the newest teams in the game are. As such, this is simply an example given, rather than an endorsement thereof. Its also worth pointing out that many of the higher tier teams are also regarded as being among the most difficult to play: access to a wide variety of skills and players does not necessarily equate to being a good team for a player starting to play for the first time. Asterixes (**) indicate that team tier association can often vary significantly for the particular team so marked.


Tier I (Strongest - usually the most access to necessary skills, and the most likely to do well over the course of a typical season): Amazon, Dark Elf, Dwarf, Elf, High Elf, Human**, Norse, Ork, Skaven, Undead, Wood Elf

Tier II (Average - these teams, in the words of one player 'have clear strategic options, but often lack the starting skills to successfully implement them): Chaos, Chaos Dwarf, Khemri, Lizardman, Necromantic, Nurgle**, Slann**, Vampire**

Tier III (Lowest - these teams can win, but lack essential starting skills, or have significant weaknesses that make them less likely to win over the course of a typical season): Chaos Pact**, Goblin, Halfling, Ogre, Underworld"

More Info can be found here:
http://bbowl.wikia.com/wiki/Current_Blood_Bowl_Teams
http://bbtactics.com/strategy/races/


This is a great breakdown for new Blood Bowl players.

Simply put the game isn't balanced but with 20 years of fine tuning I think it is safe to assume that is intentional. The rules themselves are great and have ways to help the little guys not get stomped too badly and sometimes it is just fun to play the underdog because when you win, it is THAT MUCH BETTER!
 
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Dave van Zundert
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Balance? Yes, let's try that! Hahaha

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