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Subject: EC win for HRC is also rejecting election results. rss

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Moshe Callen
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Here's the thing. I think Trump's election for US president is a bad thing, especially for the US. I have no expectation that his term in office could be anything but a disaster.

Some people have started an online petition therefore to ask the electoral college to vote for HRC instead. IOW they want to reject the outcome of the election, the very thing which Trump threatened to do if he lost and which was rightly condemned as a threat to US democracy. It's still a threat to US democracy if it comes from the other side.

So let's suppose the electoral college does vote in HRC saying she won the popular vote. What kind of precedent would that set? Let's even imagine that they do and then a constitutional amendment is passed quickly to eliminate the electoral college. We're still talking then about changing the election rules after the vote to get the result one wants.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
It's not going to happen. Electors are selected by the party that wins the State. If electors vote faithlessly they would vote for another within their own party and not defect to the other party (i.e. vote for Hillary).

It's just a pipe dream.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
I think the rest of the states would pass a law saying the EC has to follow the states results. If not then there will be a federal law to do the same.

The EC votes still have to be ratified by congress, so even if the EC goes faithless, congress will still get Trump in.


edit:correcting tense
 
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Ironically, if the Electors voted for Clinton instead of Trump, it would be Constitutional, and would cause a crisis of Old Testament proportions. There would be serious rioting in the streets, and probably a few militias would actually take a few shots at somebody. Far worse of a disaster than a Trump presidency.

That being said, I doubt the Electors would do that. They tend to be fairly serious people who do accept outcomes of the elections. And while I think that (A) online petitions are idiocy of the highest order, (B) most of those who came up with the idea or sign it probably didn't vote, it's certainly less obnoxious than trying to disqualify a president because they doubt his citizenship and loyalty to the country.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
The electoral college is kinda horrible as it is but it would be even worse if the electors just went off half cocked and just did whatever.

I really hope this doesn't happen and everything just proceeds as it is supposed to (even if I don't like the result, I still respect the game).
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


There's a sense in which the "intention" of the EC is to prevent someone like Trump from actually winning an election. By "someone like Trump" I mean a demagogue who is clearly unprepared for and incapable of performing the job of president. There was a fairly elitist strain amongst our founding fathers - they were more than a little contemptuous of the "rabble" - and the EC was meant to be a buffer between the population and the office of the presidency.

But the tradition has become that the EC is a pro forma ratification of the vote of each state. People put a lot of faith in those traditions and, so, yeah, fuck with those traditions at your own peril.

There's an interesting law that a few states have adopted that pledges their EC votes to whoever wins the popular vote. If enough states adopt this law to create a voting block of 270 or more EC votes then the law will kick in. Until that time the states assign their EC votes in the traditional manner. It's a clever little way to do an end run around the otherwise impossible constitutional amendment that would be required to drop the EC.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Shampoo4you wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Captain Coconut wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?


Obama did encourage illegal aliens to vote.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Captain Coconut wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?


Sounds pretty legit!
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Terwox wrote:
Captain Coconut wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?


Sounds pretty legit!


Gosh 3 million? I knew we should have trucked in more. shake
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Captain Coconut wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?

Citation needed.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Captain Coconut wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?


Wow, what "pretty legit" site did you find this statistic on?
 
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
re: OP - Agreed, such a move would be disastrous for our republic, and could legitimately kick off a civil war if it were to happen. If the ballot box is no longer a reliable outlet for grievances, what recourse would people have?
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
fizzmore wrote:
re: OP - Agreed, such a move would be disastrous for our republic, and could legitimately kick off a civil war if it were to happen. If the ballot box is no longer a reliable outlet for grievances, what recourse would people have?


This. People have to get over it. The election is over, and according to the rules of the game, Mr. Trump won, end of story. I voted for Hillary and I lost. Now let's get on with it and hope Mr. Trump does a better job than most of us expect.

Nobody likes a sore loser.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
rcbevco wrote:
Captain Coconut wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?

Citation needed.

I'm a bit surprised that more people haven't heard about this.

This is according to Gregg Phillips, they guy who founded VoteStand, the voter fraud reporting app. He's been talking about it on Twitter.

VoteStand and True the Vote are pursuing legal action.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Shampoo4you wrote:
Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Only if you persist in the false belief that the President is elected by a popular vote.

As Moshe implies, rashly changing the rules when you don't like the outcome is the worse blow to democracy.

We can't even say retroactively that if the rules were different, Trump would have lost. If the rules were different the Republicans would have employed different strategies and may very well have won anyway.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
dkearns wrote:
Terwox wrote:
Captain Coconut wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?


Sounds pretty legit!


Gosh 3 million? I knew we should have trucked in more. shake


Ah ha! So you admit it! Tricked into confessing, just like an episode of Law and Order, Criminal Intent.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
rayito2702 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Only if you persist in the false belief that the President is elected by a popular vote.

As Moshe implies, rashly changing the rules when you don't like the outcome is the worse blow to democracy.

We can't even say retroactively that if the rules are different, Trump would have lost. If the rules were different the Republicans would have employed different strategies and may very well have won anyway.


Also, for what it's worth, Hillary beat Trump by 2.5 million votes in California. This basically means that if you take California out of the equation then Trump wins the popular vote across the rest of the nation by around 1.5 million votes. Should California decide for the rest of the nation? Well, of course not, and nobody would think otherwise. The point is that you can slice and dice the results in a number of ways to make almost any case you want. We need to just drop this - what's done is done.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Captain Coconut wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Captain Coconut wrote:
Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?

Citation needed.

I'm a bit surprised that more people haven't heard about this.

This is according to Gregg Phillips, they guy who founded VoteStand, the voter fraud reporting app. He's been talking about it on Twitter.

VoteStand and True the Vote are pursuing legal action.

Random guy on Twitter makes outrageous claim that no one can independently verify, promises to reveal proof at some later date.

Yeah, we desperately need to talk about that. Maybe click on his website a bunch and give him some ad revenue while we're at it.

On second thought, how about we pretend he doesn't exist until such time as he is willing to produce evidence worth investigating.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Captain Coconut wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Captain Coconut wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:

Yes, I know it would be Constitutional but it would be a blow to democracy. That's my point. Of course it's not going to happen. I'm simply saying, "Would anyone really want it to happen?" Trump will be a disaster but he's inevitable now.


Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?

Citation needed.

I'm a bit surprised that more people haven't heard about this.

This is according to Gregg Phillips, they guy who founded VoteStand, the voter fraud reporting app. He's been talking about it on Twitter.

VoteStand and True the Vote are pursuing legal action.

Ah yes, True the Vote, such a non-partisan organization a judge ruled them a Republican PAC.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
rayito2702 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Likely 1,000,000+ more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump. The Electoral College is the blow to democracy.

Only if you persist in the false belief that the President is elected by a popular vote.

As Moshe implies, rashly changing the rules when you don't like the outcome is the worse blow to democracy.

We can't even say retroactively that if the rules were different, Trump would have lost. If the rules were different the Republicans would have employed different strategies and may very well have won anyway.


Are you dense? Who said I believe that they are elected by popular vote? I said the Electoral College (the INSTITUTION) is a blow to democracy, not that Trump "stole" the election. Clearly they are not elected by popular vote as this BS has happened twice in my lifetime, both times favoring the Republicans.

As for why I think we should get rid of the EC, these are pretty informative. Not to mention, early on in our nations history they kept it preserved to protect slavery. Slavery is gone, so why do we still have it? http://time.com/4558510/electoral-college-history-slavery/



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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
Who won the popular vote in this (or any EC) election says little about who would have won a popular vote under a popular election system.
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Re: EC win for Trump is also rejecting election results.
rayito2702 wrote:
Captain Coconut wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Captain Coconut wrote:
Even with the over 3 million votes from non-citizens that were discovered?

Citation needed.

I'm a bit surprised that more people haven't heard about this.

This is according to Gregg Phillips, they guy who founded VoteStand, the voter fraud reporting app. He's been talking about it on Twitter.

VoteStand and True the Vote are pursuing legal action.

Random guy on Twitter makes outrageous claim that no one can independently verify, promises to reveal proof at some later date.

Yeah, we desperately need to talk about that. Maybe click on his website a bunch and give him some ad revenue while we're at it.

On second thought, how about we pretend he doesn't exist until such time as he is willing to produce evidence worth investigating.

He's not exactly a "random guy on Twitter" though, is he?

I don't know your political leanings, but I was surprised how quick people were to accept things they wanted to believe throughout this entire campaign, even when presented with evidence to the contrary. And that was with a presidential election in the balance, when there was a strong incentive to lie.

Anyhow, you're right that it's not worth very much until the legal proceedings. He's got the resources to do this analysis though, and I don't really see the incentive to lie. He's pursuing legal options and posting progress updates on his Twitter account, not pushing a propaganda campaign for unknown ends.
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