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Terraforming Mars» Forums » General

Subject: Congratulations on place 42 on BGG, Terraforming Mars! rss

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Sebastian Stückl
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Congratulations, Terraformig Mars!
You just reached the top42 on BGG! Awesome!
As we all know, 42 is perhaps the most important number in Terraforming Mars, and everywhere else. So I figured this very important place deserves its own congratulation thread!

Very well done, and may a few more ranks follow in the next weeks!
See you in the top 25!

Also, once again congratulations to Fryxgames on this success!



Sebastian



PS: Here's a little FAQ that should cover all your most important questions about this thread:

- I have seen you before! Who are you again?
I am just some guy that strolls around this forum.
You may know me from other popular threads such as:
Will Mars explode?
Congratulations on Top100, Terraforming Mars!
Solo Highscores
Picture of Curiosity

- Do you feel silly opening another congratulation thread after just a few weeks?
Yes, and for a lot of other reasons (see below)

- What would you rather terraform, one Mars-weighted mouse or 3.38 * 10^25 mice-weighted Marses?
Personally, I really love mice. But on the other hand, I also like Mars. I think this would come down to practical issues. "Terraforming" an object this small does not make any sense, so we probably have to stick to a giant mouse floating through space for now.

- Are you aware that correctly, your previous question should refer to 33784210526315789473684210.526316 Marses? What do you do with the 0.52 Mars?
I imagine the half Mars would be half the weight/volume, not a mini-Mars cut into two halves. Therefor we could terraform it like all others. (with some paint)

- Are you done with this silly "FAQ" now? Nobody was ever going to ask these questions
Ha. This is not over yet!

- 42? I don't understand, what is this all about?
This is a reference to BGG, which uses a set of precisely 42 different emotes.
At least, that's what I heard.

- Can I post as many replies as I want per thread?
Yes, you can take as many reply actions as you want, but only 1 or 2 at a time.
After that, it is the next poster's turn. This continues until no user wants to post any further replies.
If you do not leave a reply, you have passed and may not answer until the next thread generation.
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
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I'm contractually obligated to respond to any thread which references H2G2.
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Vergililus De Kat
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nbread wrote:
I'm contractually obligated to respond to any thread which references H2G2.

Well, as long as you know where your towel is, you don't have to panic whistle
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Pasvik -
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42 is the answer to life, the universe and everything!
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Jordan Booth
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I'll just add another tardigrade and wait to see what everyone else does.
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Matt Lee
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The fact that we can't Scrabblify 42 like HGTTG is a disturbing thing here.


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Joe Orosz
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It's already moved up to 38th, just 1 day later.
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Sebastian Stückl
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illy wrote:
It's already moved up to 38th, just 1 day later.


Well, that was quick!
The previous steps took much longer though. It really just depends on how far it is from the Geek Rating on one place to the next one
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Jonathan Fryxelius
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Bastinator1 wrote:
illy wrote:
It's already moved up to 38th, just 1 day later.


Well, that was quick!
The previous steps took much longer though. It really just depends on how far it is from the Geek Rating on one place to the next one


Yes, but also note that some days the rankings are not updated at all. Yesterday was one of those days (Which can be seen in the GenCon Ranking Tracker Geeklist). So the jump today was probably two smaller jumps over two days.
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Joe Orosz
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Well, another update of the list and another 4 spaces. 34th now. Just jumped over Roll for the Galaxy, Dominant Species, Concordia, and Twilight Imperium.
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I came here because I noticed this was at #35.

How can a game climb so quickly? Is it really that good?

Nothing wrong with a high score, but man, it sure moved up fast. Is this a function of the gamer population greatly increasing with lots of "newer" gamers?

I guess I better play this one!
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Sam Carroll
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Misterboy wrote:
I came here because I noticed this was at #35.

How can a game climb so quickly? Is it really that good?

Nothing wrong with a high score, but man, it sure moved up fast. Is this a function of the gamer population greatly increasing with lots of "newer" gamers?

I guess I better play this one!


There's a lot of buzz around TM now. And as more people rate it, its Geek Rating climbs quickly (due to the Bayesian Average BGG uses).
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spartax wrote:
Misterboy wrote:
I came here because I noticed this was at #35.

How can a game climb so quickly? Is it really that good?

Nothing wrong with a high score, but man, it sure moved up fast. Is this a function of the gamer population greatly increasing with lots of "newer" gamers?

I guess I better play this one!


There's a lot of buzz around TM now. And as more people rate it, its Geek Rating climbs quickly (due to the Bayesian Average BGG uses).


Yeah, I know how the BGG rating works. But it's been a while since I've seen a game run up the charts this quickly. (cough, Pandemic: Legacy, cough).

My impression is that it was released at Essen. So in about a month, it's had a meteoric rise. Seems a bit odd.
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Sam Carroll
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Misterboy wrote:
My impression is that it was released at Essen. So in about a month, it's had a meteoric rise. Seems a bit odd.


No, it's been out for at least two months now - I preordered through Amazon and got it sometime in September.
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Enoch Fryxelius
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Misterboy wrote:
spartax wrote:
Misterboy wrote:
I came here because I noticed this was at #35.

How can a game climb so quickly? Is it really that good?

Nothing wrong with a high score, but man, it sure moved up fast. Is this a function of the gamer population greatly increasing with lots of "newer" gamers?

I guess I better play this one!


There's a lot of buzz around TM now. And as more people rate it, its Geek Rating climbs quickly (due to the Bayesian Average BGG uses).


Yeah, I know how the BGG rating works. But it's been a while since I've seen a game run up the charts this quickly. (cough, Pandemic: Legacy, cough).

My impression is that it was released at Essen. So in about a month, it's had a meteoric rise. Seems a bit odd.


The ratings started before Essen with release at GenCon and the prototypes have been around for 2 years with the beta-testers, gaming groups and people trying the game on conventions in Sweden able to rate the game before Essen.

8,5 is a decent (!) average rating and the number of votes (more than 3000 now) slowly pushes the Geekrating closer to the Avarage rating.

Even though I'm glad for the success of this game, I believe that the whole rating system is biased towards newer games. Why? Because BGG is growing all the time, and more and more players are joining. I think people mostly rate what is hot right now, rather than rating all the "classics" that they might have enjoyed earlier and that they probably think is just as good as the new games. Therefore I think that the Geekrating is biased, not because new games get better ratings, but rather because new games get more ratings...

To be sure, I think you should play it. Just to decide...
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Thanks for the data spartax and EagleEye80.

Sounds like the game has been around a bit more than I thought. But still... only 2 months of general availability.

EagleEye80, you hit on my original implied point. And upon further reflection, I think it is the biggest factor.

The gaming hobby has really blown up and the number of new users has gone through the roof. So when a new, great, game comes out, there are simply WAY more people who play and rate it compared to older titles.

So, new games are consistently climbing the charts faster than in the past.

It's worth teasing this out, because the question isn't if this is a great game. The question is, is it as great as the BGG rating seems to indicate. And I think the answer to that is only "maybe".

Perhaps it's time to revisit the rank algorithm. Maybe it needs to take into account the number of active BGG users over time and apply that curve to the rank list.
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Sebastian Stückl
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EagleEye80 wrote:
Even though I'm glad for the success of this game, I believe that the whole rating system is biased towards newer games. Why? Because BGG is growing all the time, and more and more players are joining. I think people mostly rate what is hot right now, rather than rating all the "classics" that they might have enjoyed earlier and that they probably think is just as good as the new games. Therefore I think that the Geekrating is biased, not because new games get better ratings, but rather because new games get more ratings...


I have to respectfully disagree.
Yes, people do tend to rate board games more frequently which they only discovered recently, or which are really hyped right now.
However, don't get fooled by this. Older games have been around for a veeeery long time, people had the time to rate them, and they did so in the past. Perhaps those games did not average 100 votes per day, but they may have at their peek, and then slowly accumulated more and more votes over time.
Newcomers, on the other hand, weren't around for such a long time. They simply didn't have the time to accumulate votes, and rely solely on a quick hype to get a lot of votes. After the hype is over, though, they are pretty much in the same spot as all other games, and lose this advantage. A game being new and hyped, and thus receiving votes more frequently at first, is just enough to bridge the initial gap and catch up to the remaining field.

It's easier for a game to accumulate X votes nowadays than it was 5 years ago, but on the other hand, it also needs way more votes to reach the same result that other games have achieved, which should still put new games at a disadvantage compared to old games. Unless, of course, BGG is growing at an incredible rate, or people really never rate any old games, but I do not think either is the case.


For reference, take a loot at the list of board games, sorted by number of votes:
The majority of games on the list is pretty old (About 10 years, or even older, in fact)
Only 38 of the top100 most-rated games were released in this decade! (2010-2015)
Actually, only 3 of those games are from 2015, and all others are older than that.
Amusingly, the #1 board game on BGG is from 2015 though

But the main point is that while new games can more quickly acquire votes, the advantage that established games have still far overshadows this.


So apart from this, did you ever consider that once a game reaches a certain rank, it is more likely to receive votes (it sells better, and shows up more often for people who just take a look at the top 100 or so), which further increases its rating?
But well, that's just a side effect of using bayesian averages. shake

Also, I imagine that people have a tendency to adjust their own rating towards those of previous voters. (Humans are sheep)
If a game has a poor start, or also a good one, I imagine that can easily define its final standing later on, simply because people do not like to deviate from the initial rating "offer".


On the topic of old games vs. new ones, one more thing I'd like to say is that very clearly, game design has grown a lot in the 10-20 years.
Not just with board games, but computer games, too.
Game designers can avoid certain pitfalls that others stepped into years ago, and they can make more educated guesses on what "works", what concepts are popular elsewhere, and which things to avoid.
In a way, the community dictates which games it's going to receive later on.
Does that mean every single game will be better than the ones you played years ago? No. But surely, the average quality of games should be better.
So overall, it should be normal for new games to replace old ones.


Cheers,
Sebastian!
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All good points Sebastian.

However, I think it may be less about "lots of votes" and more about mass numbers of new people, new to the hobby.

I'm not implying that new, hot, games get more votes. I'm implying that the percentage of votes they receive is high enough to compete with older games AND they are likely rated higher on average due to the inexperience of the mass of new gamers on the site. In other words, culturally the "hotness effect" is far more pronounce now, then it was in the past.

But again, this is just speculation. I lack the time and inclination to puzzle it out fully. However, it's pretty clear to me that *something* is going on.

It's totally possible my anecdotal evidence is just wrong as well. But I've been on this site a long time. Much longer than my current account's registration date implies.

Pandemic Legacy had the power of Pandemic behind it. But a game that has been readily available for 2 months in spot 35? Wow. I've usually been an advocate of the BGG rating system; understanding it's usefulness and when it is not useful. But lately, I've been reconsidering.
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Peter W.
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Going up to rank 26
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Peter W.
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And up to 24!
Think, it will climb again after being available again next year...
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Leo Borg
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And now Terraforming Mars is at place 16 overall!! And 9 on strategy. Nice! Do we think it could come within top 10 soon?
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swYck wrote:
And now Terraforming Mars is at place 16 overall!! And 9 on strategy. Nice! Do we think it could come within top 10 soon?

Looks like it will pass the next three games in a week or two. War of the Ring 2nd is still moving up, although slowly, so this is harder to judge.

Against that, Gloomhaven will pass it within two weeks tops, probably less, so losing a spot there.

After that, the climb gets a bit steeper. Ultimately TFM could land near Scythe, if it can get another 7000 rates while maintaining its average. My guess is that the last game it passes will be Castles of Burgundy. But what do I knows, a few months ago I said Power Grid and TFM passed that handily.
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Örjan Almén
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And now, Terraforming Mars is on #13 on overall and #7 on Strategy!
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AJ Cooper
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orjanalmen wrote:
And now, Terraforming Mars is on #13 on overall and #7 on Strategy!

Hmmm, latest check shows War of the Ring 2nd has gained just enough to recapture 13th, somewhere out past the third decimal place. TFM has been rising faster overall though. Both are closing in on Agricola ... hard to believe I just said that.
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Örjan Almén
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But TM took the 13th place back, and left War of the Ring behind, and now even passed Agricola and conquered the 12th place.

Looking at the strategy list, 7th and slightly behind Scythe. It is not impossible to pass Scythe here, even likely when the TM game market isn't satisfied yet.
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