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Subject: Expansions boxes - mostly air? rss

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Ben Turner
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Just wanted people thoughts on the expansions boxes for this one. To be clear, I've nothing against the $14-19 price mark for "some extra gameplay" - that seems reasonable, assuming it's a tight, interesting change to the game that plays well.

It just strikes me that those expansion boxes look kinda big and beautiful for what is 6 cards and a couple of wooden bits in one case. That seems crazy big and wasteful - I'm clearly not going to keep a moderate sized box for what I'm sure will slip nicely into the main gamebox. Just seems they have really over-produced the expansions here, rather than presenting them as simpler addons.

Shame there is a KS option to pick them up without boxes (given they'll all end up in the main box for myself) or similar.
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Brodie
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They are a complete waste. Most people don't have room for them, and will likely consolidate. But the creator doesn't want to hear that, and has a grand idea of a gigantic mural box display...no matter how impractical that is.

I'd buy the bits, in a plastic bag or something that can be thrown in the base box, but all the little expansion boxes are a deal breaker.

Complete waste.
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Joshua Ryan
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Although I've already pledged for everything, I am on the fence about spending that much money on the expansions. Hopefully some more info about what exactly they add and how they fit into the main game will help ease my mind before the KS ends.

However, I will say that the reason I went all in to begin with is that this kind of thing is right up my alley. The vision that these guys have for this project to include these quirky boxes, just for the sake of making some cool art, well I think it's neat. I understand that most people will find this approach wasteful, cost-inefficient, and completely unnecessary, but I think it's great when designers/publishers want to do fun things with their games solely for aesthetic reasons.

It'd be nice if they could provide another option for people who just want the components without the extra boxes, but I appreciate that they don't want to compromise on their passion for this project. My wallet may not be happy after this KS is over, but I sure will be whenever I see those sweet boxes on my shelves.
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Brodie
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I'm on the fence, on the whole.

Ya, the art is gorgeous....like everyone says. It's tough to argue that. But what about the actual game? What is it? How does it play with multiple player counts? Replayability? What do those expansions add? Just all the normal stuff.

And sure, there are paid reviewers that say the game is good...but okay, that's not super helpful. Then they all say...don't even read the rule book...it's just too much to take in, you really have to play it. Okay...cool, well we can't play it yet. And there are no videos of turn play or anything yet. So I'm having a hard time throwing $150 at something we don't even really know that much about. Other than it has awesome art.

Hopefully things clear up in a couple weeks. But my initial excitement for this has cooled off considerably in the past week.

Edit: Typo
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Joshua Ryan
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I agree. I like that they're taking an interesting risk, but now I've gotta figure out if the risk is worth it for me. Hopefully we'll find out more in the next few weeks.
 
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Jake Prettyman
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Its confusing that he even seems reluctant to post a blurb about what the expansion content adds to the game. We only know what bits are in there. An update talking about each would be very helpful at this point.
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Jason Brown
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Brodie17 wrote:
They are a complete waste. Most people don't have room for them, and will likely consolidate. But the creator doesn't want to hear that, and has a grand idea of a gigantic mural box display...no matter how impractical that is.

I'd buy the bits, in a plastic bag or something that can be thrown in the base box, but all the little expansion boxes are a deal breaker.

Complete waste.

You don't want to hear this, but you're completely wrong. We board game geeks are the only ones who don't have room on our shelves for games and we account for less than 10% of the traffic on Kickstarter. It's hard to believe because we make up a large part of the comments section. Most people do not have so many board games that they need to shop for new shelves on a regular basis.

That's just us. We few, we happy few...

There are currently 1,494 people backing this game and no more than a dozen have raised the expansion boxes as an issue. Mark has been designing this game for years and the box mural is a part of the experience just like the wooden monsters and elongated board. Would you expect him to change the monsters to plastic or shrink the board because a dozen people thought it was a complete waste?

Nope.

Anyway, most backers who are happy with it don't comment, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
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Andy Spriggs
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Brodie17 wrote:
They are a complete waste. Most people don't have room for them, and will likely consolidate. But the creator doesn't want to hear that, and has a grand idea of a gigantic mural box display...no matter how impractical that is.

I'd buy the bits, in a plastic bag or something that can be thrown in the base box, but all the little expansion boxes are a deal breaker.

Complete waste.


That is the impression I get. People have been telling him it is ridiculous for months, but he has dug his heels in. It is his baby so he is free to do that, but I fear it will be to his financial detriment. Like Ben said, the pricing seems ok, but I personally would rather not have the expansions at all than have to store or throw out the boxes. For shipping, volume is as important as weight, so if it doesn't end up costing us much extra to ship them, someone else will be losing out somewhere. With the amount of air in them, the expansion boxes better be pretty solid. Displaying the game as a mural on your shelf won't looks so great if the expansion boxes are crushed.
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Angela Mcgavisk
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So you are claiming that non-boardgamegeeks are going to drop over $100 on a heavy boardgame and it's 3 expansions? Also, no one is asking him to drop his idea - just ALSO offer the expansions in a box less bundle to the backers.
MAJBrown22 wrote:
Brodie17 wrote:
They are a complete waste. Most people don't have room for them, and will likely consolidate. But the creator doesn't want to hear that, and has a grand idea of a gigantic mural box display...no matter how impractical that is.

I'd buy the bits, in a plastic bag or something that can be thrown in the base box, but all the little expansion boxes are a deal breaker.

Complete waste.

You don't want to hear this, but you're completely wrong. We board game geeks are the only ones who don't have room on our shelves for games and we account for less than 10% of the traffic on Kickstarter. It's hard to believe because we make up a large part of the comments section. Most people do not have so many board games that they need to shop for new shelves on a regular basis.

That's just us. We few, we happy few...

There are currently 1,494 people backing this game and no more than a dozen have raised the expansion boxes as an issue. Mark has been designing this game for years and the box mural is a part of the experience just like the wooden monsters and elongated board. Would you expect him to change the monsters to plastic or shrink the board because a dozen people thought it was a complete waste?

Nope.

Anyway, most backers who are happy with it don't comment, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
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Jason Brown
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Amcgavisk wrote:
So you are claiming that non-boardgamegeeks are going to drop over $100 on a heavy boardgame and it's 3 expansions? Also, no one is asking him to drop his idea - just ALSO offer the expansions in a box less bundle to the backers.
MAJBrown22 wrote:
Brodie17 wrote:
They are a complete waste. Most people don't have room for them, and will likely consolidate. But the creator doesn't want to hear that, and has a grand idea of a gigantic mural box display...no matter how impractical that is.

I'd buy the bits, in a plastic bag or something that can be thrown in the base box, but all the little expansion boxes are a deal breaker.

Complete waste.

You don't want to hear this, but you're completely wrong. We board game geeks are the only ones who don't have room on our shelves for games and we account for less than 10% of the traffic on Kickstarter. It's hard to believe because we make up a large part of the comments section. Most people do not have so many board games that they need to shop for new shelves on a regular basis.

That's just us. We few, we happy few...

There are currently 1,494 people backing this game and no more than a dozen have raised the expansion boxes as an issue. Mark has been designing this game for years and the box mural is a part of the experience just like the wooden monsters and elongated board. Would you expect him to change the monsters to plastic or shrink the board because a dozen people thought it was a complete waste?

Nope.

Anyway, most backers who are happy with it don't comment, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm telling you. Ask any Boardgame project creater how much traffic they receive from BGG and you'll be astounded at how small the figure is.

Also, your asking him to create an entirely new SKU and complaining after he explained his position, thanked you for the input and politely declined. The page preview was up for months and I didn't see a single comment about this issue in that time. Do you have even the slightest inkling of how much that would cost or the time and effort it would take? I know that CMON consistently changes their projects based on the whims of a few loud backers, but Mark is a full time college professor launching a truly indie project.

Kickstarter backers are, dare I say it, entitled to give their opinion. The project creator however, is under no obligation to agree with it. Mark has been incredibly patient and explained his reasons several times already. It's actually okay for someone to disagree with you.
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Andy Spriggs
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
Amcgavisk wrote:
So you are claiming that non-boardgamegeeks are going to drop over $100 on a heavy boardgame and it's 3 expansions? Also, no one is asking him to drop his idea - just ALSO offer the expansions in a box less bundle to the backers.
MAJBrown22 wrote:
Brodie17 wrote:
They are a complete waste. Most people don't have room for them, and will likely consolidate. But the creator doesn't want to hear that, and has a grand idea of a gigantic mural box display...no matter how impractical that is.

I'd buy the bits, in a plastic bag or something that can be thrown in the base box, but all the little expansion boxes are a deal breaker.

Complete waste.

You don't want to hear this, but you're completely wrong. We board game geeks are the only ones who don't have room on our shelves for games and we account for less than 10% of the traffic on Kickstarter. It's hard to believe because we make up a large part of the comments section. Most people do not have so many board games that they need to shop for new shelves on a regular basis.

That's just us. We few, we happy few...

There are currently 1,494 people backing this game and no more than a dozen have raised the expansion boxes as an issue. Mark has been designing this game for years and the box mural is a part of the experience just like the wooden monsters and elongated board. Would you expect him to change the monsters to plastic or shrink the board because a dozen people thought it was a complete waste?

Nope.

Anyway, most backers who are happy with it don't comment, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm telling you. Ask any Boardgame project creater how much traffic they receive from BGG and you'll be astounded at how small the figure is.

Also, your asking him to create an entirely new SKU and complaining after he explained his position, thanked you for the input and politely declined. The page preview was up for months and I didn't see a single comment about this issue in that time. Do you have even the slightest inkling of how much that would cost or the time and effort it would take? I know that CMON consistently changes their projects based on the whims of a few loud backers, but Mark is a full time college professor launching a truly indie project.

Kickstarter backers are, dare I say it, entitled to give their opinion. The project creator however, is under no obligation to agree with it. Mark has been incredibly patient and explained his reasons several times already. It's actually okay for someone to disagree with you.


I have heard hits from the BGG advertising links being poor, but that doesn't really prove anything. You can't measure traffic to the KS pages from BGG users which is the only useful metric. I go to kickstarters via kickstarter or other sites and never from BGG. For this kind of game, I don't imagine too many people that don't ever visit BGG backing it, so the opinions here are very valid.

Also, I am not sure if we were reading the same comments section in the KS preview if you never saw people complain about those boxes. If I hadn't seen the complaints there before I never would have joined this discussion. The issue I have is that is was discussed but the objections were blown aside. As a result I am not really surprised the issue been raised now.

Had a solution been looked into pre-kickstarter to placate those with pitchfolks, the "no more than a dozen" complainers could have instead been discussing the gameplay changes with the expansions.
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Brodie
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Ha, I was waiting for that dude to show up and defend his beloved creator. Mark can do no wrong in his eyes, so not even worth arguing with him.

But yes...shelf space is one of the top "issues" board gamers face and think about when buying games (I know, tough problems ) But it is a real thing for a lot of gamers. So this box thing is definitely bothersome and something he should address (via a boxes bundle or however he wants to handle it).

Amcgavisk wrote:
So you are claiming that non-boardgamegeeks are going to drop over $100 on a heavy boardgame and it's 3 expansions? Also, no one is asking him to drop his idea - just ALSO offer the expansions in a box less bundle to the backers.
MAJBrown22 wrote:
Brodie17 wrote:
They are a complete waste. Most people don't have room for them, and will likely consolidate. But the creator doesn't want to hear that, and has a grand idea of a gigantic mural box display...no matter how impractical that is.

I'd buy the bits, in a plastic bag or something that can be thrown in the base box, but all the little expansion boxes are a deal breaker.

Complete waste.

You don't want to hear this, but you're completely wrong. We board game geeks are the only ones who don't have room on our shelves for games and we account for less than 10% of the traffic on Kickstarter. It's hard to believe because we make up a large part of the comments section. Most people do not have so many board games that they need to shop for new shelves on a regular basis.

That's just us. We few, we happy few...

There are currently 1,494 people backing this game and no more than a dozen have raised the expansion boxes as an issue. Mark has been designing this game for years and the box mural is a part of the experience just like the wooden monsters and elongated board. Would you expect him to change the monsters to plastic or shrink the board because a dozen people thought it was a complete waste?

Nope.

Anyway, most backers who are happy with it don't comment, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
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Greg Justice
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MAJBrown22 wrote:

Kickstarter backers are, dare I say it, entitled to give their opinion. The project creator however, is under no obligation to agree with it. Mark has been incredibly patient and explained his reasons several times already. It's actually okay for someone to disagree with you.


I just wanted to re-iterate the most salient comment in the thread.
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Jason Brown
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Brodie17 wrote:
Ha, I was waiting for that dude to show up and defend his beloved creator. Mark can do no wrong in his eyes, so not even worth arguing with him.

Now I'm curious as to what you expected to get from this thread if not a discussion of different viewpoints.

Aside from agreeing with you and giving you exactly what you want, what answer do you hope to get? The reasons for not providing a big box have been explained multiple times. If you won't accept anything other than complete agreement, then I won't bother offering a dissenting opinion.
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I doubt there will be any actual 'expansion boxes'. Contents of these boxes really are mostly air.
 
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Mark O'Reilly
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I can understand the designers "vision", he has thought this through and the Murial idea with the expansion boxes is a nice one. The expansion box sat at the top doesn't look great, but the two side ones certainly do.

The problem is that these boxes need to warrant their existence by being filled with worthy game content ( or almost). As it is, I bet you could put the contents of all three Expansion boxes into the one expansion box.
You can certainly fit all expansions "loose" (no doubt in ziplocks) into the main game box.

Case in point:

Base game is a reasonable $59 + postage

3 x expansions is $47 presumably plus increased postage.

Keeping in line with the designers vision for his game, how about the boxes are not made up, they are in their flat form in the main game box, along with the expansion content in baggies.
No crushed expansion boxes, reduced shipping cost and hopefully reduce the cost of all three expansions down to a more realistic figure.

Still have each box available seperately for people that don't want the lot?.

Just my personal thoughts on the matter, it would be Dumb to turn this into a Feud
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I do not have a final opinion on this matter yet, but the sale figures for the expansions (compared to the main game) might tell us if the creator's idea was in line with what his backers were looking forward to or otherwise.
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Jake Prettyman
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How about some stretch goals that add content to the expansions? Would help more backers with the pricing and meets Marks desire to keep the boxes for his vision.

No matter what happens Mark has 59$ from me for the base game. Super excited no matter what.
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Ben Bruckart
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I actually completely unbacked the project. First time designer. Rulebooks getting revised as campaign goes along. Didn't look incredibly fun to me. Price point with extras was about $150. No rulebooks for the expansions. Added players for expansions signal red flags to me as well, as if not tested in gameplay. All red flags. I will wait till the reviews come out if I consider getting it at all. I do love the art but for less, I could get Lisboa which I know has been in development and active playtest for 2 years.
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
Ask any Boardgame project creater how much traffic they receive from BGG and you'll be astounded at how small the figure is.


This just doesn't sit right with me. While I can believe that there are many boardgame enthusiasts who navigate to the Kickstarter website without clicking through an ad displayed on BGG, I have a hard time believing that the majority of people backing hobby boardgame projects on Kickstarter aren't BGG users.

I think the above statement is incorrectly conflating two separate metrics- the prevalence of backers of Kickstarter boardgame projects who navigate to Kickstarter via ads placed on BGG, and the prevalence of KS boardgame project backers who are BGG users.
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Jason Brown
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jprett2 wrote:
How about some stretch goals that add content to the expansions? Would help more backers with the pricing and meets Marks desire to keep the boxes for his vision.

No matter what happens Mark has 59$ from me for the base game. Super excited no matter what.

Additional expansion content is a great idea, would love to get more bang for the buck. From a look at the contents, it seems feasible to add and/or upgrade components.
 
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Brodie17 wrote:
They are a complete waste. Most people don't have room for them, and will likely consolidate. But the creator doesn't want to hear that, and has a grand idea of a gigantic mural box display...no matter how impractical that is.

I'd buy the bits, in a plastic bag or something that can be thrown in the base box, but all the little expansion boxes are a deal breaker.

Complete waste.


Look at the mural. Those first two expansions are most likely ~16" tall (the board is 16x42 and I imagine the board isn't going to be folded inward). So, in the case of the Seals and Sirens expansion you are looking at a box that big to hold a card, 6 chits and a wooden figure. Ridiculous from the POV of shipping costs, efficient packing and environmental responsibility (needlessly sending that kind of volume just to fulfill the idea of a mural which you're just going to have to take apart every time you want to play the damned game...).
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John Peters
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Brodie17 wrote:
I'm on the fence, on the whole.

And sure, there are paid reviewers that say the game is good..


Are you saying that the game designer paid people to review his game? If so which ones? Curious to know who the paid reviewers are?
 
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Yes, the size of those expansion boxes bother me too. I haven't backed the game yet, but I find it a little bit irresponsible to the environment to have those huge boxes just for some tokens and cards. Wouldn't all those things fit in the base game or maybe in one box? Ot just in smaller boxes? Maybe I'm judging those box sizes wrong.
That might not be an issue, if you pick up an expansion at a local shop, but shipping is already so very high, that I'm only thinking about backing, because the kickstarter price is so much lower than the promised retail price. But with 3 added expansion boxes, shipping might just be too much for my liking. And I still don't even know what the expansions offer in terms of gameplay. No reviews mention them.

The mural looks sweet, but I stack my games horizontally and expansion boxes will almost all get thrown out or repurposed for other stuff.
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
Amcgavisk wrote:
So you are claiming that non-boardgamegeeks are going to drop over $100 on a heavy boardgame and it's 3 expansions? Also, no one is asking him to drop his idea - just ALSO offer the expansions in a box less bundle to the backers.
MAJBrown22 wrote:
Brodie17 wrote:
They are a complete waste. Most people don't have room for them, and will likely consolidate. But the creator doesn't want to hear that, and has a grand idea of a gigantic mural box display...no matter how impractical that is.

I'd buy the bits, in a plastic bag or something that can be thrown in the base box, but all the little expansion boxes are a deal breaker.

Complete waste.

You don't want to hear this, but you're completely wrong. We board game geeks are the only ones who don't have room on our shelves for games and we account for less than 10% of the traffic on Kickstarter. It's hard to believe because we make up a large part of the comments section. Most people do not have so many board games that they need to shop for new shelves on a regular basis.

That's just us. We few, we happy few...

There are currently 1,494 people backing this game and no more than a dozen have raised the expansion boxes as an issue. Mark has been designing this game for years and the box mural is a part of the experience just like the wooden monsters and elongated board. Would you expect him to change the monsters to plastic or shrink the board because a dozen people thought it was a complete waste?

Nope.

Anyway, most backers who are happy with it don't comment, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm telling you. Ask any Boardgame project creater how much traffic they receive from BGG and you'll be astounded at how small the figure is.

Also, your asking him to create an entirely new SKU and complaining after he explained his position, thanked you for the input and politely declined. The page preview was up for months and I didn't see a single comment about this issue in that time. Do you have even the slightest inkling of how much that would cost or the time and effort it would take? I know that CMON consistently changes their projects based on the whims of a few loud backers, but Mark is a full time college professor launching a truly indie project.

Kickstarter backers are, dare I say it, entitled to give their opinion. The project creator however, is under no obligation to agree with it. Mark has been incredibly patient and explained his reasons several times already. It's actually okay for someone to disagree with you.



I agree. I have 5 games total and eill back thisbone with all expansions. Live board games, started 6.months ago, but dont have all the money of the world to buy them all. I love how those boxes look, and wouldnt change a thing!
 
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