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Subject: Weight compared to his other games rss

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Runar Dankel
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How would you guys compare this to his other games weight wise
 
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Mike Aust
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Laner wrote:
How would you guys compare this to his other games weight wise


I can't compare them personally, but in the Man vs. Meeple preview, they put The Gallerist as the weightiest, followed by Vinhos, with Lisboa coming in the lightest of the three.
 
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Nicholas Hjelmberg
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Vital himself put it between Vinhos and The Gallerist in the comments to the Rules video (https://boardgamegeek.com/video/117167/lisboa/gaming-rules-l...).

Personally, I found The Gallerist slightly easier but the game flow makes sense as soon as you start playing. (I haven't played Vinhos.)
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Jack Francisco
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I wonder how it compares to CO2, my favorite of his designs.
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Ian O'Toole
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Really hard to place them. For me, Lisboa is about equal to The Gallerist, with Vinhos (2010 rules) being more complex than both! Kanban is still Vital's most complex game, I think. So Lisboa sits somewhere in the middle for me.

I will say, though, that paying attention to the thematic elements that are interwoven throughout the game really helps with learning, and especially with teaching the game. The Gallerist was like this as well I found, but it's especially true here, the mechanisms actually tell a story
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Ian O'Toole
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senorcoo wrote:
I wonder how it compares to CO2, my favorite of his designs.


Probably the closest comparison to CO2 would be the fact that you are often giving other players wigs (points) through your actions when opening public buildings. The trick is to give yourself more wigs This is tangentially similar to CO2 in the way that your actions will sometimes open up opportunities for other players.

Weight wise I'm not sure. I find CO2 very intuitive but have played with people who really struggled to grasp the workings of the CEP market.
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Jack Francisco
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Yes, I found CO2 to be very intuitive as well, which is probably why I like it so much.
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Richard
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mlaust10 wrote:
Laner wrote:
How would you guys compare this to his other games weight wise


I can't compare them personally, but in the Man vs. Meeple preview, they put The Gallerist as the weightiest, followed by Vinhos, with Lisboa coming in the lightest of the three.


Strange. Gallerist is generally considered his lightest with Vinhos at the top. Besides being opinions, there's also an issue with the definition. Vinhos, 2010, is insanely tight and difficult and feels like you're just clawing out of a sinking hole.

To me it's not about the rules as all of his games have about the same amount of rules, perhaps CO2 a bit fewer, and they are all amazingly thematic and flow nicely. Rather, the heaviness comes just from the challenge of understanding how best to operate within the system created and the ability to survive amid your choices made during the game.
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Runar Dankel
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Thanks guys. It was the Man vs Meeple part that threw me off as I found The Gallerist to have a nice flow and not to hard or to many exceptions in the rules, just a lot of possibilities with all the bonuses. Think I have to watch the run through with Rahdo again.

 
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Katharina Schrempf
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I have to confess, I haven't played any of his games yet.
Which do you prefer?
 
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I own all of his games (not Vinhos Deluxe) and would rank Kanban and Vinhos (2010) the heaviest, then The Gallerist and finally CO2 as the lightest. I haven't played Vinhos Deluxe but I would suspect it would be around The Gallerist's weight.

I love cars so Kanban is one of my favourite of his games. I wrote a review that you can read.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1566124/cabralicus-reviews-...

I also really love Vinhos and its meaty heavy decisions and very tight gameplay with money and creating wines for export, sale and the wine fair and trying to maximize Manager bonuses for extra actions.

The Gallerist is just amazing as I also like art, my wife loves art more than I do so she really likes playing that game.

CO2 is also good but I get into disputes with friends and family when I construct on "their" project. It really isn't theirs its mine now! Mua haha...devil
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Richard
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Candacis wrote:
I have to confess, I haven't played any of his games yet.
Which do you prefer?


I've played all solo but feel I can only speak of Vinhos and Kanban. I'd be hard pressed to chose between them. There's s buttery smoothness to Kanban's complexity and I love how physical the game is with the factory. On the other hand, I respect Vinhos' tightness and lack of mercy along with the wonderful theme. I think Gallerist would be under those two, mainly because I feel it's not as thematically tight as the others.

CO2 I don't feel I could have opinion on as the rules are just so different and I can't tell how it would play in multiplayer without experiencing it. I will say, while beautiful, the graphical design is by far the weakest of his games which are generally fantastic in this regard.
 
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Kris Wiggins
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Haha, people and their varying opinions, I think it's funny. Not that anyone cares, but I say the rankings from highest to lowest complexity are Gallerist, Kanban, Vinhos. But what do I know? And I'm sure I'll pick up Lisboa regardless, Vital is great!
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krakrs wrote:
Haha, people and their varying opinions, I think it's funny. Not that anyone cares, but I say the rankings from highest to lowest complexity are Gallerist, Kanban, Vinhos. But what do I know? And I'm sure I'll pick up Lisboa regardless, Vital is great!


Yeah, that is pretty funny!
Best part is that I bought The Gallerist because it was supposed to be the easiest of the bunch
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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition and Máquina
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This is my weight scale (from the lightest to the heavyest):

1. Vinhos 2016
2. The Gallerist
3. Lisboa
4. CO2
5. Vinhos 2010
6. Kanban

But anyway, only my opinion. You of course, have a different one.
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Kris Wiggins
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Laner wrote:
krakrs wrote:
Haha, people and their varying opinions, I think it's funny. Not that anyone cares, but I say the rankings from highest to lowest complexity are Gallerist, Kanban, Vinhos. But what do I know? And I'm sure I'll pick up Lisboa regardless, Vital is great!


Yeah, that is pretty funny!
Best part is that I bought The Gallerist because it was supposed to be the easiest of the bunch


Me too! haha
 
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I think the difficulty in really weighing Lacerta's games by the norm is thst his weight doesn't come from fiddley rules or reslly complex *mechanisms* per-se, but rather because he is, in my opinion, the master of the highky interactive non-combative euro. He has planted his flag in that space few seems to think exists. Most seem to think you are either combative (my action hurts you) or passive (maybe I took a spot you wanted but it's not really directed) in all of Lacerta's games it is 'I do a think, which will potentially let you do a thing, which may affect his things over there too.' In that sense Vinhos is the least interwctive of his titles I believe. There's some sublte manipulation of costs in actions taken, and a lot of direct competition for exports and the fair, but not as much knock-on effect in actions. Compare that to CO2 where every action sets up an opponemt for another action, and the Gallerist where dvery action has the potential to give an opponent an extra half-turn.

That sort of design is why he is up there with the Splotter posse as my #1 euro designers. (Not sure I could pick between the two)
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newrev wrote:
This is my weight scale (from the lightest to the heavyest):

1. Vinhos 2016
2. The Gallerist
3. Lisboa
4. CO2
5. Vinhos 2010
6. Kanban

But anyway, only my opinion. You of course, have a different one.


Vital, now that you have a 6th game, I have wondering wich Microbadges you will use
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Michael Cabral
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He will probably replace one of the Vinhos microbadges with a Lisboa one. Decisions... decisions... Vinhos was his first game but Vinhos Deluxe is his latest game...

krakrs, I also find it amusing with the differing weights to the games.

I think Kanban is the heaviest as you have to manage Sandra's position while also being as efficient as possible by banking and using shifts for actions. You also have to manage upgrading parts, building cars, training, training bonuses, seats for meetings, the actual meetings and scoring your Pet Project and performance goals, while ALSO planning to achieve as many final scoring goals and banking seats as possible to score THOSE as well. So great!

Vinhos 2010 is second heaviest. The quadrel is great and you can do 9 different actions. Easy right? But layer in the Manager's bonus for more actions, being able to manage your business by bringing in money from selling to the local businesses, making your way to the bank and managing your investments or divesting to gain more money but paying interest. Buying vineyards, increasing the quality by buying wineries and hiring enologists (paying them 1,000 Bagos each round) I also really love the Wine Fair submitting your wine. You don't want to give your best wine because that could go to the Exports for massive VP! To use the renown cube(s) or not to... The mechanics aren't difficult it is piecing together your strategy based on what's available to you at that moment that makes your brain burn. Love it!

This is where I differ with Vital.

The Gallerist is still pretty heavy. You have 4 locations with 2 actions each. You again layer in the International Market and Auction and its implications at the end of the game, the various bonuses throughout the game, using your influence for discounts or increasing fame as well as for kick out actions. Amazing.

CO2 is the lightest for me as you have 3 main actions that can be done. Propose project, install the infrastructure and Construct the power plant. You also have free actions in moving a scientist to a project or summit. Playing a lobby card or scoring a UN card. As well as a market action in where you can buy or sell a CEP. Pretty simple? The complexity lies within the expertise track where that will allow you to gain income via money and/or VP directly. You can achieve combos by kick out actions by sending them to summits or gaining the expertise and a scientist in hand. Each 1 coin you gain is 1/2 a VP. You have to balance whether you should construct a power plant and use your precious tech cubes and money to gain VP, potentially gaining control of a region and gain its CEPs for use during the game in certain situations or gain them all at the end of the game. Also keep an eye on the CEP market price for gains or spoil other players CEP value. Very nice!

Vinhos Deluxe (unknown)

I am eager to read what others have to say.
 
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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition and Máquina
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Aztarun wrote:


Vital, now that you have a 6th game, I have wondering wich Microbadges you will use


lol No microbages for Lisboa yet.
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krakrs wrote:
Haha, people and their varying opinions, I think it's funny. Not that anyone cares, but I say the rankings from highest to lowest complexity are Gallerist, Kanban, Vinhos. But what do I know? And I'm sure I'll pick up Lisboa regardless, Vital is great!


Well, like I said, defining these words is hard. You used complexity, I was using weight. To me they are very different things. Gallerist ups complexity a little bit with its turn structure and I feel has a lot of little steps to remember. Vinhos is heavy for me not because of any complexity but just because it's so unforgiving with strategy (at least the 2010 version).

Anyway, nice thoughts and it looks like even Vital has a different order!
 
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newrev wrote:
This is my weight scale (from the lightest to the heavyest):

1. Vinhos 2016
2. The Gallerist
3. Lisboa
4. CO2
5. Vinhos 2010
6. Kanban

But anyway, only my opinion. You of course, have a different one.


Interesting, as this differs from most popular perception. This would imply that CO2 has depth undiscovered by the community, and that The Gallerist is more straightforward (but perhaps less intuitive to the community).

Edit: Removed Kanban as it is weighted highest along with The Gallerist on BGG.
 
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icarusmustburn wrote:
newrev wrote:
This is my weight scale (from the lightest to the heavyest):

1. Vinhos 2016
2. The Gallerist
3. Lisboa
4. CO2
5. Vinhos 2010
6. Kanban

But anyway, only my opinion. You of course, have a different one.


Interesting, as this differs from most popular perception. This would imply that CO2 and Kanban have depth undiscovered by the community, and that The Gallerist is more straightforward (but perhaps less intuitive to the community).


Actually I was reading this upside down. I'd say this is pretty close to what most of the community thinks, with potential swapping of Vinhos2010 and Kanban, as I would do, although I haven't played either as many times as Vital has
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The weights on BGG are as follows:

1. Vinhos 2016 - 3.87
2. CO2 - 3.88
4. Vinhos 2012 - 4.19
5. Kanban - 4.28, The Gallerist - 4.28

Here's a poll for readers of this thread:

Poll
What are the relative heaviness of Vital Lacerda games? 1 = lightest, 5 = heaviest
  1 2 3 4 5
CO2
Kanban
The Gallerist
Vinhos 2012
Vinhos 2016
      22 answers
Poll created by icarusmustburn
 
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Michael Cabral
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Vinhos 2010

EDIT: This is with regards to the poll. The poll has Vinhos 2016 and 2012. It should be Vinhos 2010 as one of the options.
 
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