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Subject: Catacombs too brutal? rss

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Stevie P
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So I am reading through the catacombs rules and I come across this rule:

"If the party receives the Lost token 3 times in an adventure, the heroes are defeated. The heroes are lost in the confusing tunnels of the warrens and are never seen again. The heroes must reset their progress and start again with new heroes."

The triggering factor is the FD attribute match on a Disoriented trap tile, so the more heroes there are the greater chance of you triggering it.
I'll grant you that you have to fail a NCA check and then there is another roll on the Catacombs table.

I can just see a 5 person game going through and bad dice rolls happen, then all 5 people have to restart even though their heroes have health, hard won equipment, titles, emotional investment ... The result being starting over with new heroes or artificially boosted heroes so as not to start from novice again.

I am not a fan of the oh you roll 3 bad rolls in a row OK everyone loses rule.
 
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Tobias Loeffler
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I would look at the positive side: At least your party CAN get lost in the catacombs... my heroes would happily give their lives for such a chance...
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Kevin Erskine
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The solution is simple, just don't do it. Take some other penalty. It's your game.

Galaxy Defenders is like that where if you die, your character starts over (Yeah, I know it's different than an entire party) but I impose a different penalty on them for the next game, but not dead. Makes it more fun for me.
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Stevie P
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@Tobi - I hope you get your JM stuff soon!

@kerskine - I wasn't really looking for a solution and I definitely understand the houserule mentality around Myth. It was more a "why would you even put a rule like that in place?" question.

I guess I'm just whining. See what happens when you go over rules books before coffee
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Joe Price
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Maybe I missed something, but where is "defeated" set to "perma-death"? For us, that was always just the end of that current game, quest, act, module, whatever failed. Thematically, the story is over (if you follow that bit) and for that individual session, you spent too long finding your way out that whatever was going to happen, has, and moved on.

And even "death" by vitality loss isn't dead, dead, never coming back. Resurrection clearly exists. And that's assuming the character is actually dead instead of knocked out or incapacitated. Battlefield healing is usually not comprehensive enough at a certain point to restore combat capabilities, but that doesn't mean dead. (*shrug*)

Since I never saw the perma-death reference, for us, failure means playing the next game. We may lose an item depending upon what happened. We may reset to our original configuration, or keep whatever state we were in. We play the story. Well, I do anyway, since the others are there usually just to play the mechanical game and leave me to manage the story.

Also, the new ??x?? (4+ tiles of any size) Combined Realm Tile Legends section specifically calls out "Each hero that abandons or is defeated on this legendary combined tile must discard one of their highest quality items and one title." That implies non-permanent defeat. As does the new orange merchant who you can pay to have a character resurrected.

Finally, looking through the 2.0 rules, there's the "Defeated Heroes" section on page 13. No vitality? You're cleared at the clean up step. That's your window for serendipity resurrection. Quest items go to another hero. You don't receive any awards. You are resurrected at the end of an act after awards. If all players are defeated, record the game as the end of an act and everything on-going is failed.

Oh, and for the Lost bit, don't forget you can spend serendipity to negate the Lost token. So, it isn't guaranteed because of random selection and avoidance test, encourages keeping NCA cards in your deck, allows resource expenditure to counteract the effect and if all else fails imposes a variable resource drain penalty with a timer on the status ranging from 0-4 tiles. It sounds like they've given lots and lots of chances, provided additional reasons for NCA cards and challenge party resources so they don't just build up all the time.

So... yeah, I don't have a problem with any of it.
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Chad Caughmann
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@Joe - this topic isn't really about the definition of "defeated" vs permadeath. He wrote the verbiage used in the first post, and it indicates that your party is lost forever, and that you reset everything...starting again with new characters. You can debate the meaning of "defeated" all you want...that isn't THIS topic. Some people may casually call what is described as "defeated"...but it really doesn't matter. Did they permanent die? It doesn't matter. What matters is that the result says to basically start over with new characters...resetting your progress.
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Stevie P
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@Joe - As far as going down in battle that is true and also how we play it.
Some of what you said is why I posted this to see if I was reading to much into this and to get a different perspective.

To your point you set those heroes aside and just don't use them for this act/session anymore. Not gone completely. I also play this way I guess I didn't read it that way and wasn't thinking down that line (see my coffee comment).

So lets for a second consider this:
"The heroes must reset their progress and start again with new heroes."
I understand that there are many ways to try to not have this happen, but lets say for grins that it happened.
I'm trying to understand what Megacon wants to have happen here if you want to play it as written. If you were 2/3 through BW module say and your 1st party is "lost".
How do you think they see you playing this?
Reset progress back to where do you think?
I am assuming that if I don't have other heroes then I have to create them, giving them random or picked higher level items?

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Steven Babel
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steprov wrote:
The triggering factor is the FD attribute match on a Disoriented trap tile, so the more heroes there are the greater chance of you triggering it.



I don't have the rules in front of me right now but I thought they said you pick a player to be the leader of the party and its their FD attribute your trying not to hit, so a 1/6 chance 3 times in a row. 1/216 chance seems unlikely this will come up too often but if it does its still your choice restart the act or restart all characters cards and titles.
 
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Joe Price
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The rule specifically is:
Blackwall Warrens, p7 wrote:
If the party receives the Lost token 3 times in an adventure, the heroes are defeated. The heroes are lost in the confusing tunnels of the warrens and are never seen again. The heroes must reset their progress and start again with new heroes.


So... wow. These either conflict or are redundant. Why bother stating they're defeated if you then say reset progress? That's different than the base rules (which say you fail the adventure and move on, which could include retrying the adventure). And why reset progress and start again with new heroes? None of those seem to mesh well right now.

For the FD roll, "[i]f the defining attribute doesn't match a hero present on the tile, the chute trap is ignored". So the more variety of heroes present, the more likely someone might trip the chute trap that could cause the party to get lost. The "1 hero" bit is to choice someone to roll on the Catacombs Table.
 
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Endevor Rovedne
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steprov wrote:

I'm trying to understand what Megacon wants to have happen here if you want to play it as written. If you were 2/3 through BW module say and your 1st party is "lost".



M%aybe çi am misreading your comment but it is impossible to get lost during a module since you ignore tile legend.
 
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Stevie P
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@Endeavor I think so because I was only talking about the rule in the book. If you can just focus on my last post I think that is more concise. Basically what do you do after your party is lost.
 
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Endevor Rovedne
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Sorry i don't understand why you are talking about module then.
And this sentence was in the last post.
I just wanted to avoid the confusion that could come from your post. There is no way ti gey lost in the BW 24p module.

Reset all progress mean that : begin a new character from scratch with 0 title 0 item 25 novice cards. (i am talking about the rules not what you xan houserule).

This seem brutal but it is pretty easy to avoid, in QE1 and 2 there is A LOT of quest cards that lead to 1 or more character do "real" death.
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Stevie P
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Thanks. I didn't read the module. That was what I suspected about the reset. It sounds like you are also saying the party is gone forever. That was how I originally read it.

There is lost at sea and lost in the catacombs. I didn't realize there are some perm death cards in QE1 and 2. because I don't have those expansions something new (for me) in journeyman is the concept of game over for your characters. Sounds like I was not the only one.

Wow we went full circle.

 
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Endevor Rovedne
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For QE1 and 2 2.0 nobody have them yet

But if i am not wrong there is 1 chain quest that could lead to that in the base game (cut of the head maybe?).

I translated QE1 and 2 recently and the brutality of some quests hit me this is why i talked about it.
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