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Subject: The evade action is a little weird (and overpowered?) rss

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Brad Ficek
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So I just finished the first scenario with two friends. I'm wondering if we maybe played it wrong or the first scenario just isn't that hard. An enemy attacked us exactly zero times.

Just to make sure I have this right, an evade action, if successful, neutralizes and exhausts an enemy. Hence we did this constantly. I played the ally that allows me to have an additional action on my first turn, I was Wendy and I went around evading monsters in every location. Then the two dudes with guns would come and take care of them. They never attacked because of this. If I missed an evade, oh well, I just evaded again. If the other two players missed an attack, oh well, no damage.

How does this work, thematically? I go to a location, the enemy engages with me, and then I tire it out so much after it tries to find me, it has no energy left to attack? It just felt weird that I was neutralizing enemies as Wendy.

Is anyone else finding this to be the case?
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Soylent Green
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So - you can only evade engaged enemies if I recall. Also - if you miss your evade action - the monster should get an attack of opportunity if they are engaged with you. You account for that? (I need to check the rules again... but I'm pretty sure you can't evade a monster you aren't engaged with.)
 
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Brendan Lapsley
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Nez477 wrote:

How does this work, thematically? I go to a location, the enemy engages with me, and then I tire it out so much after it tries to find me, it has no energy left to attack? It just felt weird that I was neutralizing enemies as Wendy.


I always pictured it more as tripping the enemy or getting them tangled in something.

Sounds like you are playing it correctly though.
 
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Brendan Lapsley
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SoylentRed wrote:
So - you can only evade engaged enemies if I recall.


Correct.

SoylentRed wrote:
Also - if you miss your evade action - the monster should get an attack of opportunity if they are engaged with you. You account for that?


Only if they have Retaliate.
 
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Jean-Philippe Thériault
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Wendy -> tank
Guys with guns -> DPS

Seems like the only issue is you feel a theme disconnect.

Also I think in order to fight the DPS dudes need to engage, which is one action...
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Brendan Lapsley
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XDarkAngelX wrote:

Also I think in order to fight the DPS dudes need to engage, which is one action...


No, you only need to be in the same location as a target to attack.

Downsides for missing:
Engaged with you - Retaliate means it hits back
Engaged with another player - Retaliate means they hit other player. You deal damage to the other play since you missed
Exhausted - None
 
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Dee
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XDarkAngelX wrote:
Wendy -> tank
Guys with guns -> DPS

Seems like the only issue is you feel a theme disconnect.

Also I think in order to fight the DPS dudes need to engage, which is one action...

An investigator is free to attack an enemy in another investigator's threat area (assuming same location of course) but, if the skill check fails, the attacking investigator deals their attack damage to investigator with whom the enemy is engaged.
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Matthew McFarland
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The first scenario isn't that hard, no; there aren't even that many enemies to draw. If that was too easy, just bump up the Chaos Bag. Of course, that makes the game take a while, too. With three investigators that's 6 clues to get out of the Study, and 9 to get past the barrier. Let alone the fifteen health the Ghoul Priest has, and he absolutely won't engage Wendy unless she's the last one left.
 
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Brad Ficek
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valpocarnie wrote:
XDarkAngelX wrote:

Also I think in order to fight the DPS dudes need to engage, which is one action...


No, you only need to be in the same location as a target to attack.

Downsides for missing:
Engaged with you - Retaliate means it hits back
Engaged with another player - Retaliate means they hit other player. You deal damage to the other play since you missed
Exhausted - None


Right, the exhausted - none part is what makes attacks easy to circumvent. When you evade a monster it is exhausted and not engaged with anyone, hence you missing an attack has zero ramifications period. Right?
 
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Brendan Lapsley
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Nez477 wrote:
valpocarnie wrote:
XDarkAngelX wrote:

Also I think in order to fight the DPS dudes need to engage, which is one action...


No, you only need to be in the same location as a target to attack.

Downsides for missing:
Engaged with you - Retaliate means it hits back
Engaged with another player - Retaliate means they hit other player. You deal damage to the other play since you missed
Exhausted - None


Right, the exhausted - none part is what makes attacks easy to circumvent. When you evade a monster it is exhausted and not engaged with anyone, hence you missing an attack has zero ramifications period. Right?


Right.

However, it sounds like you only played the first scenario, where this strategy works great. In the other scenarios, this strategy would take a while and time is NOT on your side.
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Brent Bergwall
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I think it make thematic sense in that evading means you have the monsters attention (it must be engaged with you) and your are running hiding maybe ducking in somewhere it can not follow. It is wasting its time trying to catch/find/get to you so that is why it becomes exhausted.

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mathew rynich
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Yes sounds like you played right. Also congrats on playing Wendy correctly. It seems like a lot of people are concentrating on attacking enemies because it's very empowering, but this is a horror game and running from Jason or Michael Myers is usually more effective.

The first scenario is pretty easy. There are definite jumps up in difficulty from 1 to 2 to 3. Three is very challenging on standard difficulty.

Thematically I suspect you made the enemy chase you and then eluded it by hiding, gave it a false trail to follow or perhaps you manage to trap it behind a locked door. Somehow you threw it off your trail for a turn. In any event it's still busy dealing with whatever you did and therefore is exhausted.

Also note some enemies are easy to fight, some are easy to evade and everywhere in between in the core scenario.
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MC Shudde M'ell
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In terms of theme, it's worth noting that Enemies only miss if you Evade. If you think of the whole turn as happening at once, Evade can simply mean a swing and a miss on the Enemy's part.
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Patrik Severinsson
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valpocarnie wrote:
However, it sounds like you only played the first scenario, where this strategy works great. In the other scenarios, this strategy would take a while and time is NOT on your side.

Evading actually works pretty good in the second scenario as well. We found that it was more action efficient to evade and move away from enemies, than to kill them (except a few that needs to be dealt with).
We had a group of hunters constantly at 1-2 spaces away from the investigators (Wendy+Roland). Any newly spawned enemies were evaded and left to join the group. We usually managed to get all the clues from a location before we had to move on.

But I think it's good that there are more ways to deal with threats than just to kill it.
 
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valpocarnie wrote:
XDarkAngelX wrote:

Also I think in order to fight the DPS dudes need to engage, which is one action...


No, you only need to be in the same location as a target to attack.

Downsides for missing:
Engaged with you - Retaliate means it hits back
Engaged with another player - Retaliate means they hit other player. You deal damage to the other play since you missed
Exhausted - None


Actually, an enemy with Retaliate will counter-attack any investigator who misses them, regardless of whom they're engaged with. But, yes, since you missed you get to do damage to your friend as well! Fun!
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Mathias Heilmann
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Gaffa wrote:
valpocarnie wrote:
XDarkAngelX wrote:

Also I think in order to fight the DPS dudes need to engage, which is one action...


No, you only need to be in the same location as a target to attack.

Downsides for missing:
Engaged with you - Retaliate means it hits back
Engaged with another player - Retaliate means they hit other player. You deal damage to the other play since you missed
Exhausted - None


Actually, an enemy with Retaliate will counter-attack any investigator who misses them, regardless of whom they're engaged with. But, yes, since you missed you get to do damage to your friend as well! Fun!
Also don't forget that you will hit your partner if you fail an attack on an enemy that is engaged with another investigator.
 
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Boian Spasov
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valpocarnie wrote:


SoylentRed wrote:
Also - if you miss your evade action - the monster should get an attack of opportunity if they are engaged with you. You account for that?


Only if they have Retaliate.


I can't find this rule and I thought retaliate works only against attack actions. Probably I missed something. Care to point me to the relevant text in the rulebooks? (Only relevant text I found was about missing a skill check while attacking)
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Viet Tran
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yeah I think evading is really strong. I dont use it as much as a should (coming from lotr lcg I want to kill everything! and am very adverse to taking damage) but it seems like you can even take a monster without hunter to a room with you evade it and leave it there (sort of like locking the door behind you) granted you should probably grab all the clues from that room first.

The biggest issue i had with mass evade was if it was in a room that I needed to stay in or needed to back track to I would find myself engaged with multiple enemies at one time and i would spend my entire turn evading each enemy. I guess I just tried to push everything back and eventually it caught up to me. This is more of an issue in the latter scenarios.
 
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Oliver Broom
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valpocarnie wrote:
SoylentRed wrote:
So - you can only evade engaged enemies if I recall.


Correct.

SoylentRed wrote:
Also - if you miss your evade action - the monster should get an attack of opportunity if they are engaged with you. You account for that?


Only if they have Retaliate.


Couple of errors here :

1. Enemies with Retaliate don't attack you back for missing your Evade action, they only attack if you miss an Attack action

2. An "Attack of Opportunity" is an attack which happens if an investigator is engaged with an enemy and performs an action other than Fight, Evade, Parley or Resign
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Jeremie Miller
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"Exhaust" is a game term, outside of the actual story, so I don't see the enemy as actually being tired.

Also I am not sure on this:

"Also - if you miss your evade action - the monster should get an attack of opportunity if they are engaged with you. You account for that?"

I don't think the Retaliate keyword works on evades, only attacks. From the Rules Reference:

"Each time an investigator fails a skill test while attacking
a ready enemy with the retaliate keyword, after applying
all results for that skill test, that enemy performs an
attack against the attacking investigator."

So if you fail an evade action I don't think there is an attack of opportunity. Is there another section of the rulebook I am missing?
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Phoenix Bird
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Just for everyone’s convenience:

Retaliate
Retaliate is a keyword ability.

Each time an investigator fails a skill test while attacking a ready enemy with the retaliate keyword, after applying all results for that skill test, that enemy performs an attack against the attacking investigator. An enemy does not exhaust after performing a retaliate attack.

• This attack occurs whether the enemy is engaged with the attacking investigator or not.

Evade, Evade Action
"Evade" is an action an investigator may take during his or her turn in the investigation phase.

To evade an enemy engaged with an investigator, that investigator makes an agility test against the enemy's evade value (see "Skill Tests" on page 18).

If the test is successful, the investigator successfully evades the enemy (see below). (This occurs during step 7 of the skill test, per "ST.7 Apply skill test results" on page 26.)

If the test fails, the investigator does not evade the enemy, and it remains engaged with him or her.

• If an ability "automatically" evades 1 or more enemies, no skill test is made for the evasion attempt.

• Any time an enemy is evaded (whether by an evade action, or by card ability), the enemy is exhausted (if it was ready) and the engagement is broken. Move the enemy from the investigator's threat area to the investigator's location to mark that it is no longer engaged with that investigator.

• Unlike the fight and engage action, an investigator can only perform an evade action against an enemy engaged with him or her.

Happy posting

Phoenix
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Phoenix Bird
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My take is Evade is just fine. Nice to see a solution other than violence applied to the Mythos.

It costs an action per turn so if you have 3 enemies engaged with you, you need to spend three actions.

If you have three enemies engaged with another investigator you must take 3 engage actions to get them off them.

Some foes are worth victory points and no amount of evading will put them into your victory display.

Phoenix
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Chris McDonald
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Evading also doesn't get rid of doom on enemies.
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Scourn1
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Yea, remembering the theme here is important. Besides Roland and Skids, a FBI Agent and someone whos got nothing to loose your standard person isn't going to fight a alien murder horror creature. Everyone else runs and lets the real fighters fight. Just like real life. Im sure wed all imagine wed like to shot up some horrid creatures like these, but if the reality came and they were there, best to let the army handle it. OR at least trained people.

This is something our group forgets though, evading is powerful and should be used more then straight up everyone wants to murder
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Soylent Green
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:
Just for everyone’s convenience:

Retaliate
Retaliate is a keyword ability.

Each time an investigator fails a skill test while attacking a ready enemy with the retaliate keyword, after applying all results for that skill test, that enemy performs an attack against the attacking investigator. An enemy does not exhaust after performing a retaliate attack.

• This attack occurs whether the enemy is engaged with the attacking investigator or not.

Evade, Evade Action
"Evade" is an action an investigator may take during his or her turn in the investigation phase.

To evade an enemy engaged with an investigator, that investigator makes an agility test against the enemy's evade value (see "Skill Tests" on page 18).

If the test is successful, the investigator successfully evades the enemy (see below). (This occurs during step 7 of the skill test, per "ST.7 Apply skill test results" on page 26.)

If the test fails, the investigator does not evade the enemy, and it remains engaged with him or her.

• If an ability "automatically" evades 1 or more enemies, no skill test is made for the evasion attempt.

• Any time an enemy is evaded (whether by an evade action, or by card ability), the enemy is exhausted (if it was ready) and the engagement is broken. Move the enemy from the investigator's threat area to the investigator's location to mark that it is no longer engaged with that investigator.

• Unlike the fight and engage action, an investigator can only perform an evade action against an enemy engaged with him or her.

Happy posting

Phoenix


Very clear - thanks!
 
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