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Petri P
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The rules say:

"The raiding units must be able to trace a path free of enemy units
and eZOC to the target hex (but without actually moving the
raiding units)."

Assumption 1:

It seems like the units in the target hex do not actually exert a ZOC for this path tracing, otherwise a night raid path could never reach the target hex. (It is obvious that night raids are supposed to be possible).

Pajari can raid the Soviet 2/1/609 (in hex Q9) company here, even if the company is surrounded by its own ZOCs, lets say the last hex before the target hex is P9, NW of target.



Assumption 2:

Other enemy units do have ZOCs which stop the night raid path tracing.

Here, Pajari cannot trace a path even adjacent to 2/1/609 because of the enemy ZOCs:



Question 1:

What happens in the case of overlapping ZOCs, other units (ZOCs stop the raid) and the target (ZOC does not stop the raid)?

Here Pajari could trace path to hex P7, by going to through O9 (SW of P7), but P7 would still contain a ZOC of 3/1/364.

Would the raid be stopped because it cannot enter P7, blocked by 3/1/364?
(I assume raid is not possible).



Question 2:

What about target hex itself being under an eZOC from an adjacent enemy?

Here 3/1/364 exerts ZOC to Q9, can Pajari raid the 2/1/609?
(I assume raid is possible).



If I am correct in my assumptions, then, would a clarification to the path tracing rule be "Units in the target hex, eZOCs in the target hex and eZOCs caused by units in the target hex do not count against the path tracing."

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Mark Evans
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I found this a while back. It answers number 1.

Quote:
Ignore eZOC in the hex adjacent to the target.


At the tail end of this thread.
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/14030524#14030524
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Mark Evans
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And I don't know the answer to the second one.

Good to see you in yet another forum Petri.
 
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Petri P
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Thanks for pointing that out.

So, basically it is "like an Assault, but cheaper". And not like the rules say
 
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Mark Evans
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Sounds right. The designer pops in from time to time. He will let us know if we are wrong on this.
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Mark Mokszycki
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Quote:
The rules say:

"The raiding units must be able to trace a path free of enemy units
and eZOC to the target hex (but without actually moving the
raiding units)."

Assumption 1:

It seems like the units in the target hex do not actually exert a ZOC for this path tracing, otherwise a night raid path could never reach the target hex. (It is obvious that night raids are supposed to be possible).


Correct. During a raid, you still attack from an adjacent hex, just like you do in a Combat or Assault. You don't attack the hex from within the hex.

Quote:
Pajari can raid the Soviet 2/1/609 (in hex Q9) company here, even if the company is surrounded by its own ZOCs, lets say the last hex before the target hex is P9, NW of target.


Correct. Combat units are always surrounded by their own ZOC.


Quote:
Assumption 2:

Other enemy units do have ZOCs which stop the night raid path tracing.

Here, Pajari cannot trace a path even adjacent to 2/1/609 because of the enemy ZOCs:


Correct. That's what is meant by "The raiding units must be able to trace a path free of enemy units and eZOC to the target hex..."

Quote:
Question 1:

What happens in the case of overlapping ZOCs, other units (ZOCs stop the raid) and the target (ZOC does not stop the raid)?


I'm not sure I follow the question. It sounds like three questions. But I'll try to cover all bases. Overlapping ZOCs don't matter. A hex either contains a ZOC (meaning: one or more) or it doesn't. The target unit's ZOC doesn't matter, nor do other units' ZOCs in the final destination hex (the hex adjacent to the target from which the raid is launched) but any other ZOCs along the route do prevent the raid.

Incidentally, the reason that eZOC doesn't matter in the destination hex is because you've already reached your destination. The purpose of eZOC to is halt movement, but if movement is halted at your destination, it doesn't really matter. So the fact that you ignore eZOC in the hex adjacent to your target isn't really an exception to any rule so much as just an irrelevant situation. You halt there, but you don't really care since you are now in position to conduct your Combat/Assault/Night Raid.

Where Night Raids differ from Combats and Assaults is that you don't actually move your unit(s). After resolving the raid, you don't remain in the hex from which you attacked, or advance in to the vacated hex. You "teleport" back to your original position(s).

Quote:
Here Pajari could trace path to hex P7, by going to through O9 (SW of P7), but P7 would still contain a ZOC of 3/1/364.

Would the raid be stopped because it cannot enter P7, blocked by 3/1/364?
(I assume raid is not possible).


Correct. This raid cannot take place because the only path is blocked by an eZOC.

Quote:
Question 2:

What about target hex itself being under an eZOC from an adjacent enemy?

Here 3/1/364 exerts ZOC to Q9, can Pajari raid the 2/1/609?
(I assume raid is possible).


Yes, the raid is possible. The only eZOC along the route is projected into your final destination hex (the hex from which the raid is launched).


Quote:
If I am correct in my assumptions, then, would a clarification to the path tracing rule be "Units in the target hex, eZOCs in the target hex and eZOCs caused by units in the target hex do not count against the path tracing."


I don't think that's accurate. A more accurate and thorough wording might be, "The raiding units must be able to trace a path free of enemy units and eZOC to the target hex, excepting any eZOC (from the target unit or other units) in the hex from which the raid is launched (and without actually moving the raiding units)."

Does that answer all your questions? If not, just let me know and I'll try again.

Good luck! And happy gaming.
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Petri P
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Thanks for the official clarification!

Edit: the clarification being that the target hex, where the path trace ends, is the hex adjacent to the target unit, not the hex occupied by the target unit.

Edit2: No, that was not it.

Because your answer to the question 1 above, where Pajari is stopped by eZOC from another unit, in a hex adjacent to the night raid target unit, says that the raid is not possible.

Confused again.soblue

Edit 3:

Quote:
Quote:

Here Pajari could trace path to hex P7, by going to through O9 (SW of P7), but P7 would still contain a ZOC of 3/1/364.

Would the raid be stopped because it cannot enter P7, blocked by 3/1/364?
(I assume raid is not possible).



Correct. This raid cannot take place because the only path is blocked by an eZOC.


With that path drawn on the map:



The path of Pajari here could otherwise reach the hex adjacent to the target (unit) hex, but there is an eZOC there which is not caused by the target unit, so the night raid is not possible.

But if there was only an eZOC of the target unit, as in assumption 1 above, it would be possible. (That is what I meant by overlapping ZOCs).

Correct?

And Edit 4:

Quote:
The raiding units must be able to trace a path free of enemy units and eZOC to the target hex, excepting any eZOC (from the target unit or other units) in the hex from which the raid is launched (and without actually moving the raiding units).


=> Ok, so this is in conflict with your reply to question 1 (quoted above the picture with the path), but this makes sense - raid *IS* possible in question 1 (and the above picture with the path).
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Mark Mokszycki
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I'm not seeing the conflict, but I'm probably reading something wrong.

eZOC in the destination hex doesn't matter. So in your picture immediately above, Pajari's stack can conduct the raid. The moving stack has to halt due to entering a hex containing one or more eZOC. But since it's already at it's destination, it doesn't matter. The Assault (or raid) can still take place.

Hope that helps!

EDIT: In your pic with five Soviet units, I thought Pajari was trying to raid the unit at bottom right, in which case he could not perform the raid due to the need to pass through eZOC (not including an eZOC in the destination hex). Maybe that's where my confusion arose.
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Petri P
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Ah, sorry for being unclear, in all of the pictures Pajari is trying to raid the same unit (the red one) in the same position. The pictures just have different amounts of other Russian units around it, trying to project zocs to shield it from raiding.

I think I should have used a mortar as the target to be more clear...

Anyway, it is clear now.
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