Steven Woodcock
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Interesting article about trying a basic income:

http://www.vox.com/first-person/2016/11/14/13513066/universa...



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Adam Alleman
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Are you for or against it? I think this would be a great fix to our welfare state. Gatekeeping seems cumbersome and most people with good jobs would refuse it. Would kids get less?
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Robert Wesley
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Were this beyond "FREE Room & Board" along with 'amenities' included of phone/cable/T V/internet/Water-Sewer-Garbage/electricity/etc.?
 
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Robert Wesley
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Hey Drew, your Doctor wanted 'blood', 'urine', & 'stool' samples so send him a pair of your 'underwear' on that!

ALSO: what were you 'eating' under there?
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Aric Ashgrove
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The current documentary Obsolete has more info on this. It is only about an hour long and it quite good for what it is:

https://www.amazon.com/Obsolete-Aaron-Dykes/dp/B01MQ0XD20/re...
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jeremy cobert
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I dont understand who invents shit when everyone is taken care of ? There is no incentive to get off your ass.
 
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Chris Binkowski
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Hey I get it! Sure, let's raise the bar a bit by giving everyone an allowance. I don't see that as a problem, especially since automation and technology are making many human jobs unnecessary.

Now if only we could find people who are trustworthy enough to administer such benefits... hmm....
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Andrew Bartosh

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jeremycobert wrote:
I dont understand who invents shit when everyone is taken care of ? There is no incentive to get off your ass.


The people who would like to make more than 12K a year? The people who are passionate about inventing and creating? The people who want to improve the world? Etc, etc, etc.
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Andy Beaton
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jeremycobert wrote:
I dont understand who invents shit when everyone is taken care of ? There is no incentive to get off your ass.


Did you notice when welfare was invented that the entire population of the world didn't quit their jobs? Most of us are willing to work for more than a roof and three bowls of oatmeal a day. This will cover the people who can't. And probably a few slackers as well, but what the hell, there are more people than jobs anyway.
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Steven Woodcock
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Daddys_Home wrote:
Are you for or against it? I think this would be a great fix to our welfare state. Gatekeeping seems cumbersome and most people with good jobs would refuse it. Would kids get less?


I think it's a terrible approach to do this....but it might be the future down the road.

IF (this is the key) we actually end up with a lot more people than jobs than I could see this, but it would cost massive extra costs that I am not sure are reasonable. It would also require changes to the way we do things, some good and some (mostly?) bad.

It's moot at present, even if the slacker-types want to say they can't do anything else. We can get folks training for new jobs and find new ways to earn a paycheck; there's no crisis yet.

It's possible that once we get past the demographics bubble the combination of declining peoples and robotics/automation will more or less keep us nicely level. But it's not there yet.



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J.D. Hall
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When our robot overlords take over, I'm sure they'll come up with a fair solution.
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Junior McSpiffy
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remorseless1 wrote:
When our robot overlords take over, I'm sure they'll come up with a fair solution.


Resources.
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Steve Cates
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Two things, I highly doubt 1000 dollars a month will be worth today's 1000 when everybody starts getting it. Also, what gets done about the addicts that blow the $1000 on lottery tickets and a party the instant they get the money. Some will consume themselves into a destitute state very quickly. Then we haven't solved anything.

I'm all for fixing the welfare system, I just would like to see some testing and data beyond one reporter from Vox that's probably pretty wise with money.
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casey r lowe
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ironcates wrote:
Two things, I highly doubt 1000 dollars a month will be worth today's 1000 when everybody starts getting it. Also, what gets done about the addicts that blow the $1000 on lottery tickets and a party the instant they get the money. Some will consume themselves into a destitute state very quickly. Then we haven't solved anything.

I'm all for fixing the welfare system, I just would like to see some testing and data beyond one reporter from Vox that's probably pretty wise with money.

thats a good point - actually someone should means test your spare time because watching too many stefan molyneux videos you could devolve into a destitute state very quickly
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J J
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GameCrossing wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
When our robot overlords take over, I'm sure they'll come up with a fair solution.


Resources.


Stop it. You'll go blind.
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Kaitlyn Smith
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That is the second time I have seen somebody suggest UBI with a lower minimum wage. The first time was Kaitlyn Smith.
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Damian
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ironcates wrote:
Two things, I highly doubt 1000 dollars a month will be worth today's 1000 when everybody starts getting it. Also, what gets done about the addicts that blow the $1000 on lottery tickets and a party the instant they get the money. Some will consume themselves into a destitute state very quickly. Then we haven't solved anything.

I'm all for fixing the welfare system, I just would like to see some testing and data beyond one reporter from Vox that's probably pretty wise with money.


Mincome.
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Michael Tagge
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ironcates wrote:
Two things, I highly doubt 1000 dollars a month will be worth today's 1000 when everybody starts getting it. Also, what gets done about the addicts that blow the $1000 on lottery tickets and a party the instant they get the money. Some will consume themselves into a destitute state very quickly. Then we haven't solved anything.

I'm all for fixing the welfare system, I just would like to see some testing and data beyond one reporter from Vox that's probably pretty wise with money.
I saw this originally, and even followed through to his blog to investigate further. On the FAQ section he did have a blurb about your first point. However his answer showed he has a fundamental misunderstanding about how money actually operates. Money is used to divide actual resources (supply) among those who want (demand) it, yet he doesn't understand that. He then argues that there will be no issue with inflation because there is no increase in the money supply, since it is just money redistributed from taxes. This completely ignores the fact that a dollar in a savings account that is loaned out to a business actually creates money, while a dollar that sits under your mattress doesn't.

He also seems oblivious to the fact that without an increase in supply an increase in demand creates inflation. He waives this away for housing by saying there are enough vacant homes in the US for all the homeless people in America. As if we could just teleport homeless people from LA to live in a house without running water in Detroit and everything works fine.
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My first question about a basic income is whether it would serve its nominal purpose. Namely would it allow everyone the minimal requirements of living? All things being equal it should but I think people would jack up prices because they would feel like they could.
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Robert Stuart
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"If machines are laboring in our stead, and aren’t buying any of the fruits of that labor, should we not receive the paychecks that aren’t going to them or us, so as to buy those fruits?"

Makes sense to me. We already live in that kind of world, but at present it's not that equitable -- that is, a very few have gained inordinately from the labor of machines; the rest of us not so much.

Put another way: if machines replace, say, 1000 workers in a 2000-worker factory, but the end result is the production of the same amount of goods, at the moment this extra profit goes to the owners/investors, who in all likelihood were not the inventors or designers of the machines in the first place. Wouldn't it be more equitable to keep everyone employed at the same (monthly) salary but cut the work-week in half?

There are, of course, many equitable ways to cut the pie. A minimum income is one of them, and there's most likely some combination of providing a minimum income, increasing the remuneration to inventors, increasing the return to investors and reducing the work-week which would optimize production and go farthest to reduce poverty.

 
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Adrian Hague
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Well, Canada seems to thinks it's worth a try:

"Canadian province Ontario plans to trial universal basic income
'As Ontario’s economy grows, the government remains committed to leaving no one behind''

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ontario-to-...
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Robert Stuart
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jeremycobert wrote:
I dont understand who invents shit when everyone is taken care of ? There is no incentive to get off your ass.


People are generally motivated to work by three things: love of work itself, desire for reward, and fear of poverty. Over long periods of time it is the first which has produced the greatest accomplishments, the greatest works of genius, of the human race. No proper solution to purely economic problems can afford to ignore the fact that there is within us this innate desire to work for the sake of work.

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Adrian Hague
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Sarxis wrote:




Hey I get it! Sure, let's raise the bar a bit by giving everyone an allowance. I don't see that as a problem, especially since automation and technology are making many human jobs unnecessary.

Now if only we could find people who are trustworthy enough to administer such benefits... hmm....

So according to your 'info' graphic the following countries are 'failures'?

China
Denmark
Finland
Netherlands
Canada
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
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Seth Brown
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Good article. I think it nicely summarizes the key concept of basic income that I think opponents oft overlook -- namely that basic income isn't enough to buy whatever you want, but rather a security so you don't have to do what you don't want.
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Michael Tagge
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bob_santafe wrote:
"If machines are laboring in our stead, and aren’t buying any of the fruits of that labor, should we not receive the paychecks that aren’t going to them or us, so as to buy those fruits?"

Makes sense to me. We already live in that kind of world, but at present it's not that equitable -- that is, a very few have gained inordinately from the labor of machines; the rest of us not so much.
The dirty lie is that we in the West enjoy the labor of machines because we profit from those who live in what we would consider abhorrent conditions. They are just over there so out of sight, out of mind.

Reality is that machines aren't laboring in our stead, but serfs on other continents are. But keep pretending if you like.
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