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Subject: Big surprise ... rss

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Frank Z
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Hi geeks,

today I am happy to finally own a beautyful copy of the 2nd edition of Shadowrift!

And I am very surprised ...

because I didn't find a single threat where someone said THANK YOU to the designer Jeremy Anderson and the publisher Game Salute / Chris McMullen.

Some people say that it is a successfull kickstarter campaign if backers pledged the goal or even more. I say that it is a successfull kickstarter campaign if ...

+ there was a proper description not just about the components and the theme but the mechanics and the background of the game

+ there was always a concrete feedback to all questions and the state of the project

+ the publisher cares for good quality and produces a fine product

+ the publisher managed the huge process of the production and delivery well (even worldwide)

+ the publisher stays clearly and responsible to mistakes that may happend (hey, we are humans and we all make mistakes!)

+ the publisher and the author still cares for the backers / customers even after delivery

Watching several ks campaigns I think it is not natural that there is a fine product at the end of the process or that someone felt responsible for the process and the pledged money of the backers!

Jeremy, thank you so much for your passion, hard work and endurance ...

* to design and create a good game in a long and difficult process (I tried several times to design a boardgame so I know how hard it really is!)
* to take the effort to organize and start a kickstarter campaign
* to keep up struggeling to produce it - even after a failed ks campaign
* to give support for all geeks who asked for clarification for rules
* to work on a new and better edition and extensions
* to dare a new kickstarter campaign
* to inform the backers all the time and answer all questions
* to support all geeks who raise any question and give good answers very quickly
(by the way: I think you aren't a millionaire or a fulltime boardgamedesigner but you did all the work besides a job and probably a relationship / family)


You are a wonderful person!


Dear Game Salute / Chris McMullen,

thank you too for ...

* believing in the quality of Jeremy Anderson as a designer and partner
* the good cooperation with and support for the Jeremy (I assume)
* taking a big part in realizing the final high quality product

I really hope that more and more people become aware of the great job you did and the eager support you are providing!


... and I am looking very forward to the annonced third expansion:
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/208569/shadowri...

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Jeremy Anderson
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EinBrettspieler wrote:
Hi geeks,

today I am happy to finally own a beautyful copy of the 2nd edition of Shadowrift!

And I am very surprised ...

because I didn't find a single threat where someone said THANK YOU to the designer Jeremy Anderson and the publisher Game Salute / Chris McMullen.

Some people say that it is a successfull kickstarter campaign if backers pledged the goal or even more. I say that it is a successfull kickstarter campaign if ...

+ there was a proper description not just about the components and the theme but the mechanics and the background of the game

+ there was always a concrete feedback to all questions and the state of the project

+ the publisher cares for good quality and produces a fine product

+ the publisher managed the huge process of the production and delivery well (even worldwide)

+ the publisher stays clearly and responsible to mistakes that may happend (hey, we are humans and we all make mistakes!)

+ the publisher and the author still cares for the backers / customers even after delivery

Watching several ks campaigns I think it is not natural that there is a fine product at the end of the process or that someone felt responsible for the process and the pledged money of the backers!

Jeremy, thank you so much for your passion, hard work and endurance ...

* to design and create a good game in a long and difficult process (I tried several times to design a boardgame so I know how hard it really is!)
* to take the effort to organize and start a kickstarter campaign
* to keep up struggeling to produce it - even after a failed ks campaign
* to give support for all geeks who asked for clarification for rules
* to work on a new and better edition and extensions
* to dare a new kickstarter campaign
* to inform the backers all the time and answer all questions
* to support all geeks who raise any question and give good answers very quickly
(by the way: I think you aren't a millionaire or a fulltime boardgamedesigner but you did all the work besides a job and probably a relationship / family)


You are a wonderful person!


Dear Game Salute / Chris McMullen,

thank you too for ...

* believing in the quality of Jeremy Anderson as a designer and partner
* the good cooperation with and support for the Jeremy (I assume)
* taking a big part in realizing the final high quality product

I really hope that more and more people become aware of the great job you did and the eager support you are providing!


... and I am looking very forward to the annonced third expansion:
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/208569/shadowri...



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Michael Weber
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Hm, while I agree on with some of your positive aspects, there are still some that are questionable...

1) The rule set is certainly better than the first edition rules, but it is still lacking. Jeremy is yet again (thanks a lot for this) composing forum threads with descriptions and details of the cards in the game. He had done so for the first edition and I always kept a printout of these forum threads in my first edition box. The question now is why such information wasn't included in the 2nd edition of the game with the publisher being well aware of the problem.

2) The new expansion does not come with a single sheet of paper explaining what to do with the expansion. This is an absolute no-no and the scarce info on the dividers is not sufficient - why is there no standard setup for the two new sets of enemies? (Besides there is an error in the component listing on the back of the box)

3) There is no archfiends for the new expansion - why weren't they included in the game?

4) I paid TWICE for shipping once for the expansion KS campaign and once for the 2nd edition, yet the TWO KS campaigns "just happend" to be finished at the same time. Game Salute cashed in on the twice paid shipping fees - to me that is rather bad style.

5) The EU shipping was stuck for about 4 weeks due to Happyshops nit being able to sort out the shipments - very strange....

6) Regarding the praise high quality - there are already two errors on the cards (zombie values and on card being incorrectly marked as action/attack). Personally I would not complain about this - errors like these just happen, but on the other hand it is nothing to be euphoric about.


Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this game and really appreciate the effort JEREMY puts into it (in particular supporting it here on the geek) - that's fantastic, BUT Game Salute's performance is_OK_ only and that's it! So no wonder that there are no massive praises for this KS campaign and the product.
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Brian C
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Mixo wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this game and really appreciate the effort JEREMY puts into it (in particular supporting it here on the geek) - that's fantastic, BUT Game Salute's performance is_OK_ only and that's it! So no wonder that there are no massive praises for this KS campaign and the product.

I will admit that I have my own issues with the game, but for a counterweight perspective on Game Salute, I've found them to be very helpful and active here on the Geek, and my game arrived as promised and in a timely fashion.

I've heard sub-par things about them, but so far I've found Game Salute to be very solid, and would go through them again without a second thought.

Just my 2c.
 
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Frank Z
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Mixo wrote:

1) The rule set is certainly better than the first edition rules, but it is still lacking. Jeremy is yet again (thanks a lot for this) composing forum threads with descriptions and details of the cards in the game. He had done so for the first edition and I always kept a printout of these forum threads in my first edition box. The question now is why such information wasn't included in the 2nd edition of the game with the publisher being well aware of the problem.

Could you give some examples what kind of rules you are still missing in the 2nd edition? I think in a game with many interactive element there won't be a rulebook that could cover all issues (listen to http://ludology.libsyn.com/gametek-classic-137-incompletenes...)
Mixo wrote:

2) The new expansion does not come with a single sheet of paper explaining what to do with the expansion. This is an absolute no-no and the scarce info on the dividers is not sufficient - why is there no standard setup for the two new sets of enemies? (Besides there is an error in the component listing on the back of the box)

I didn't open the new expansion yet. I have read about the missing rules thought. I will see afterwards.
Mixo wrote:

3) There is no archfiends for the new expansion - why weren't they included in the game?

Looking closely at the Archefiend expansion I see your point. But there weren't announced at the campaign. I wonder why. Jeremy will tell us probably.
Mixo wrote:

4) I paid TWICE for shipping once for the expansion KS campaign and once for the 2nd edition, yet the TWO KS campaigns "just happend" to be finished at the same time. Game Salute cashed in on the twice paid shipping fees - to me that is rather bad style.

I backed all with the silver moon ks campaign. I didn't know about this issue. I understand your irritation.
Mixo wrote:

5) The EU shipping was stuck for about 4 weeks due to Happyshops nit being able to sort out the shipments - very strange....

Come on! That is the responsibility of Happyshops and has nothing to do with Jeremy nor Games Salute!
Mixo wrote:

6) Regarding the praise high quality - there are already two errors on the cards (zombie values and on card being incorrectly marked as action/attack). Personally I would not complain about this - errors like these just happen, but on the other hand it is nothing to be euphoric about.

There are over 500 cards of different types!!! And they also promised a free of cost reprint for all the backers!!! I have heard that there are much more error prints on netrunner cards LCG.

Often I read that people complain about the many sides of the FAQ / Errata Threat - but without looking carefully at the content. From my point of view the amount of sides of this threat are caused by the detailed answers of Jeremy and many questions that could be answered by the rulebook too (some geeks starts a threat before searching the rules for an issue).

I still think, that Shadowrift 2nd edition is a great project - by any means. I think the effort taken is underestimated by many backers.
 
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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EinBrettspieler wrote:
Dear Game Salute,

thank you too for ...
not messing it up completely this time. I decided a couple of years ago that I won't back any GS projects in the future. I made an exception with Shadowrift because I did like the first edition a lot.
At the end I'm pleasantly surprised with these projects. Now, I still don't think that anything worth praising happened here... so... thanks for the decent enough job we should expect anyway, I guess.
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Michael Weber
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EinBrettspieler wrote:
Mixo wrote:

1) The rule set is certainly better than the first edition rules, but it is still lacking. Jeremy is yet again (thanks a lot for this) composing forum threads with descriptions and details of the cards in the game. He had done so for the first edition and I always kept a printout of these forum threads in my first edition box. The question now is why such information wasn't included in the 2nd edition of the game with the publisher being well aware of the problem.

Could you give some examples what kind of rules you are still missing in the 2nd edition? I think in a game with many interactive element there won't be a rulebook that could cover all issues (listen to http://ludology.libsyn.com/gametek-classic-137-incompletenes...)


You are right that a game like Shadowrift likely will never cover all of its possible rules issues due to its complexity - this makes it even more important to design a rulebook that not only explains the game but refers to KEYWORDS to explain certain concepts. This is no magic - (pun intended) games more complex than Shadowrift like Mage Wars for example offer a reference book with all the key terms in the game. And this has not been possible for GameSalute to do??? Why not add a proper glossary of key terms?

Even worse they KNEW about the problem as I have already explained in my post above and yet again JERMEMY'S well done guide on the cards is not placed in the game box, but published in BGG forum threads???? On top of that moving from the first edition to the second GameSalute decided to toss out all the reference cards the first edition had had.

EinBrettspieler wrote:
Mixo wrote:

2) The new expansion does not come with a single sheet of paper explaining what to do with the expansion. This is an absolute no-no and the scarce info on the dividers is not sufficient - why is there no standard setup for the two new sets of enemies? (Besides there is an error in the component listing on the back of the box)

I didn't open the new expansion yet. I have read about the missing rules thought. I will see afterwards.


Oh you have not opened the expansion yet, let me give give you a tip: As there is not rules sheet in the expansion it is pretty clear that you have to shuffle in all the cards with their respective decks - right? NO, of course, this is NOT the case - you'd better visit

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1659592/rules-new-villa...

to realise, that you have to SWAP out some of the base game cards. BUT be careful and take notes as of course the expansion cards are NOT marked with an expansion symbol so cannot tell afterwards which card is an expansion card.

This alone is a set of errors that should NOT happen within a "good job" of a publisher - this is clearly the fault of GameSalute and sub-par game development.

EinBrettspieler wrote:

Mixo wrote:

5) The EU shipping was stuck for about 4 weeks due to Happyshops nit being able to sort out the shipments - very strange....

Come on! That is the responsibility of Happyshops and has nothing to do with Jeremy nor Games Salute!


It certainly is NOT Jeremy's fault. But are you really sure that it is Happyshops fault? Do you have any insights? I guess that's speculation on your part?

Look, the reason for the delay that was fielded as not being able to sort out which customer gets what items could not REALLY have been the problem. Happy shops sent out mails on the 19th of October clearly stating which items the customers would receive. Now let me do some SPECULATION:

Game Salute initially had TWO contracts with Happyshops for TWO shipments (as it were two separate KS campaigns in which shipping was charged twice as I stated before). Now, GameSalute starts haggling with Happyshop about wanting to merge both shippments into ONE, trying to bring down the shipping costs. I guess this haggling process could take a couple of weeks and this would clearly be the fault of GameSalute... BUT, again this is pure SPECULATION, I do not know a thing about the real reasons for the delay.

Even discounting the 4 weeks delay in the EU, the base game was three month late and the expansion one month - that's an OK job for a Kickstarter, but nothing worth of praising a company experienced with KS campaigns.


Yet again thanks a lot to Jeremy, his fantastic game and the effort he puts into it. Praise to GameSalute as the publisher? Naw - certainly not, they did a decent job and that's it.
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Dann May
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Thanks Frank Z.

I feel like I did a pretty good job on the art, design and art direction, really good considering the budget and time we had to work with (we aren't WOTC). As always there are a few pieces I'd love to improve, but overall I think we did a good job upgrading all that; and all the artists I worked with should be praised.

In a broader sense, I've been making the art for Game Salute games for many years now, and you can't imagine how many times I've seen "the designer is great, Game Salute suck or barely pass" and everything good directed at the designers area, and anything bad directed at GS. I love working with designers, but it is demoralizing when I know so much work has gone into doing everything we can to make it look and present well, and get those sorts of comments. Just seems easy to bash the faceless publisher. So thanks again Frank for taking a moment to let us know you appreciate the love we've put into the game.

Of course I'd love every project to be visually perfect, and there are some things I'd still like to be better, but we do need to appreciate all the good stuff we do and the thanks we get, or we may as well just pack it in (as we do this job because we love making games for people who want them). There are a few mistakes that could be singled out, including a few card errors among 500+, but Jeremy would be the first to admit that he missed those too, and we have already promised to replace it and are printing them now, so I don't know what the need is to list that out as a fault that cancels out all the other good work GS did.

On the suggested set-ups for Eve, we agree it would have been cool to add a sheet and I expect we will include set-ups for Eve in a future expansion.
 
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Victor L
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Dann, thank you for your work on this project. I was pleased that it came out as well as it did--not perfect, but good, and a great improvement over some earlier experience with Game Salute, before you were involved, I believe. Such experiences made several people, including me, wary of backing Game Salute products.

There are still some things I think could have been handled better, like including detailed descriptions of the cards, as Jeremy has done in the forums, and a few things needed more testing and development (e.g., Frozen Ground and Fist Flurry), and I think you guys could have better exploited the offers to proofread and clarify the rulebook and cards--that's one of the advantages of Kickstarter--and it was still a bit late despite having supposedly added extra time to make sure it wouldn't be. But there are always ways to improve, and despite these issues, I think you guys did a good job. I'm honestly still a bit hesitant about trusting Game Salute on games they are actually helping develop (it takes time to rebuild trust), but your handling of this Kickstarter has made me more willing to do so in the future.
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Thomas Robb
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to Jeremy

yes, thank you sincerely for a great game

 
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Frank Z
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Hey Michael,

thank you for the tipp.

Mixo wrote:

Oh you have not opened the expansion yet, let me give give you a tip: As there is not rules sheet in the expansion it is pretty clear that you have to shuffle in all the cards with their respective decks - right? NO, of course, this is NOT the case - you'd better visit

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1659592/rules-new-villa...

to realise, that you have to SWAP out some of the base game cards. BUT be careful and take notes as of course the expansion cards are NOT marked with an expansion symbol so cannot tell afterwards which card is an expansion card.

This alone is a set of errors that should NOT happen within a "good job" of a publisher - this is clearly the fault of GameSalute and sub-par game development.


And of course thank you for the effort to give such a detailed answer. I saw that you already have a lot of experience with the first edition too. I will find out this weekend what this game is about. This is the first kickstart campaign I have backed. Otherwise I used to be very sceptical about the quality and reliability of ks campaigns because I don't want to wast money nor room on the gamebox shelf.
 
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Frank Z
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Hello Dan,

sorry for forgetting the artists who contributed to the new edition (I suppose there are even many more people who contributed to the value of the game). The card examples I saw online in advance where very nice.

I see - especially regarding deckbuilding games where so many picutures are necessary or important to create a great game experience (espacially for a theme loving geek like me) - the importance and hard work of graphical designers are often neglected.

By the way: is there any threat on the geek where artists are praised or even appreciated?!?

I will give you and the other fine artists how updated the graphical design an extra praise as soon as I have sleeved all the cards and enjoyed my first gameplay!
 
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