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Subject: Elven Gift (extra abilities) rss

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MadLad Designs
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Elven Gift's normal ability says:

2 (gold)
You may draw a card. If you do, discard a card.


Do I have to use the gold in order to be able to use the second part (drawing a card...)? Or can I draw and discard without using the gold?
 
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Dániel Lányi
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Nickydude wrote:
Elven Gift's normal ability says:

2 (gold)
You may draw a card. If you do, discard a card.


Do I have to use the gold in order to be able to use the second part (drawing a card...)? Or can I draw and discard without using the gold?


There is no point in not getting the gold, but what I think you're trying to ask is can you get the draw-discard part without spending the gold. But getting gold and spending is different.
When you play the card you get the gold, and it goes to a kind of pool, which you can spend from, but spending is another action. If it weren't so, you would never be able to pay for cards costing 8. And finally, gold you don't spend is lost at the end of your turn, so you are free to not spend it.
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MadLad Designs
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I know how gold works.

But yes, spending is what I meant. If I don't (wish to) spend that gold (because I don't want anything costing 2 gold) can I still draw / discard using the second part?
 
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Also, when I 'discard a card' is that from my hand or my draw pile?
 
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Dániel Lányi
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Nickydude wrote:
I know how gold works.

But yes, spending is what I meant. If I don't (wish to) spend that gold (because I don't want anything costing 2 gold) can I still draw / discard using the second part?


Short answer is yes, but ... sorry if this sounds rude or something but if you're still asking this, you don't understand how gold works. Or maybe something about ability activation order or something. So, I hope some of this helps to get the full picture.

Hero Realms rulebook wrote:
When an Action or Item is played, its primary ability happens immediately.
Which means you get 2 gold (you cannot decline this, but I know of no possible situations where you'd want to), and then you must execute the text too, but the text says "you may" so it's not mandatory after all. And then you just don't have to spend that two gold.

Nickydude wrote:
Also, when I 'discard a card' is that from my hand or my draw pile?


From your hand.
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Thanks.
 
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Nickydude wrote:
I know how gold works.

But yes, spending is what I meant. If I don't (wish to) spend that gold (because I don't want anything costing 2 gold) can I still draw / discard using the second part?


That is the only way you can do it. You get the 2 gold, then you have to decide if you want to draw an and discard, and only then can you spend the gold (if you want). You cannot spend the gold then draw and discard.
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You would only discard a card from another area than your hand if the card told you so. Otherwise you and the other players always discard from your hand, and the player who discards chooses what they discard - unless the card says you discard a card at random.

Discarding from the top of your discard would generally be called 'put the top X cards of your deck in your discard pile."
 
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Martin
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I would like to add an example to clarify it.

Rake Master Assassin has the expend ability:
- Gain 4 combat
- Stun target champion

If you use the expend ability you have to fully resolve it from top to bottom in order to do other actions (play other cards, spend combat, ...).

If your enemy has a 4-health champion with guard in play and another 7-health champion without guard...

- You will get 4 combat points
- You'll stun the 4-health champion using the stun effect because it has guard
- Now you are allowed to spend combat and 4 points which are at the moment in your combat pool aren't sufficient to stun the 7-health champion
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Mac TheMacster
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Roger the Alien wrote:
I would like to add an example to clarify it.

Rake Master Assassin has the expend ability:
- Gain 4 combat
- Stun target champion

If you use the expend ability you have to fully resolve it from top to bottom in order to do other actions (play other cards, spend combat, ...).

If your enemy has a 4-health champion with guard in play and another 7-health champion without guard...

- You will get 4 combat points
- You'll stun the 4-health champion using the stun effect because it has guard
- Now you are allowed to spend combat and 4 points which are at the moment in your combat pool aren't sufficient to stun the 7-health champion


But...

In your example - it's not played very well, isn't it? Or am I wrong?

You could stun the 4 health guard champion with the 4 combat and then stun the 7 health champion with your text ability. I think the order is up to you.

I don't think that you must choose between the 4 combat points or the ability - you get both? And it seems thematic for me.

When this game is played like star realms or ascension - you can spend combat and gold anytime, play more cards spend more combat and gold and so on - you can do it all at once or step by step.

Maybe someone can explain the Rake - Master Assassin Card a little more detailed to me?
 
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McPain wrote:
Roger the Alien wrote:
I would like to add an example to clarify it.

Rake Master Assassin has the expend ability:
- Gain 4 combat
- Stun target champion

If you use the expend ability you have to fully resolve it from top to bottom in order to do other actions (play other cards, spend combat, ...).

If your enemy has a 4-health champion with guard in play and another 7-health champion without guard...

- You will get 4 combat points
- You'll stun the 4-health champion using the stun effect because it has guard
- Now you are allowed to spend combat and 4 points which are at the moment in your combat pool aren't sufficient to stun the 7-health champion


But...

In your example - it's not played very well, isn't it? Or am I wrong?

You could stun the 4 health guard champion with the 4 combat and then stun the 7 health champion with your text ability. I think the order is up to you.

I don't think that you must choose between the 4 combat points or the ability - you get both? And it seems thematic for me.

When this game is played like star realms or ascension - you can spend combat and gold anytime, play more cards spend more combat and gold and so on - you can do it all at once or step by step.

Maybe someone can explain the Rake - Master Assassin Card a little more detailed to me?


Assuming that it is a single ability, you cannot (and it would be the same in Star Realms and Ascension). Abilities resolve top-to-bottom, without interruption. In other words, you cannot stop resolving an ability to do anything else (like spend combat or buy cards). You can buy and attack at any time, but not when you are half way through doing something else.

In other words, playing Rake, once you start activating the ability and take that 4 combat, you have to keep going into the "stun a champion" portion of the ability.
 
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Mac TheMacster
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ThinkingThatsAll wrote:
McPain wrote:
Roger the Alien wrote:
I would like to add an example to clarify it.

Rake Master Assassin has the expend ability:
- Gain 4 combat
- Stun target champion

If you use the expend ability you have to fully resolve it from top to bottom in order to do other actions (play other cards, spend combat, ...).

If your enemy has a 4-health champion with guard in play and another 7-health champion without guard...

- You will get 4 combat points
- You'll stun the 4-health champion using the stun effect because it has guard
- Now you are allowed to spend combat and 4 points which are at the moment in your combat pool aren't sufficient to stun the 7-health champion


But...

In your example - it's not played very well, isn't it? Or am I wrong?

You could stun the 4 health guard champion with the 4 combat and then stun the 7 health champion with your text ability. I think the order is up to you.

I don't think that you must choose between the 4 combat points or the ability - you get both? And it seems thematic for me.

When this game is played like star realms or ascension - you can spend combat and gold anytime, play more cards spend more combat and gold and so on - you can do it all at once or step by step.

Maybe someone can explain the Rake - Master Assassin Card a little more detailed to me?


Assuming that it is a single ability, you cannot (and it would be the same in Star Realms and Ascension). Abilities resolve top-to-bottom, without interruption. In other words, you cannot stop resolving an ability to do anything else (like spend combat or buy cards). You can buy and attack at any time, but not when you are half way through doing something else.

In other words, playing Rake, once you start activating the ability and take that 4 combat, you have to keep going into the "stun a champion" portion of the ability.


From the Rulebook:

If an ability grants Gold or Combat, that resource goes into a
resource pool which can be used at any point during the Main
Phase
. If an ability grants Health, immediately add it to that
player’s Health total.
Some abilities allow you to choose from multiple effects. Make it
clear to everyone which effect you are choosing.

"Any point" and "immediately" means exactly what I said - doesn't it? There's no single word about "fully resolve a card before anything else".

Or there is a big hole in the rules and it's very contradictory...?

 
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McPain wrote:


From the Rulebook:

If an ability grants Gold or Combat, that resource goes into a
resource pool which can be used at any point during the Main
Phase
. If an ability grants Health, immediately add it to that
player’s Health total.
Some abilities allow you to choose from multiple effects. Make it
clear to everyone which effect you are choosing.

"Any point" and "immediately" means exactly what I said - doesn't it? There's no single word about "fully resolve a card before anything else".

Or there is a big hole in the rules and it's very contradictory...?


Resolving an ability is "one point" so "any point" is not in beetween resolving parts of one ability but after or before.

Hero Realms rulebook wrote:
Any time during your Main Phase, you may perform any of the
following, in any order, as many times as you are able:
◆ Play a card from your hand.
◆ Use the expend, ally, and/or sacrifice abilities of any of your
cards in play.
◆ Use Gold to acquire new cards from the Market.
◆ Use Combat to attack an opponent and/or their champions


Essentially these are the action available to you. You can do them in any order, but not do one action (spending combat) in the middle of another action (activating an ability)
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Mac TheMacster
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Assuming there is a card with the following ability:

Gain 1 Health.
You may spend 3 Health to deal 3 Damage to the opponent.

You and your opponent are down to 3 Health each.

In your opinion you must resolve the card completely before you can use any pool (and I count health as a pool as well). So you're dead before the healing effect takes place.

In my opinion you win the game. Thats what "immediately" means in the rules regarding health. There MUST be a benefit from it.

Same goes to combat and gold - any point. Choose the effect to gain combat, spend the combat, resolve the rest.
 
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Dániel Lányi
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McPain wrote:
In your opinion...
In my opinion...


I'd say in my experience of playing SR almost since it came out and reading forums and faqs all that time.

McPain wrote:
Assuming there is a card with the following ability:

Gain 1 Health.
You may spend 3 Health to deal 3 Damage to the opponent.

You and your opponent are down to 3 Health each.

In your opinion you must resolve the card completely before you can use any pool (and I count health as a pool as well). So you're dead before the healing effect takes place.

In my opinion you win the game. Thats what "immediately" means in the rules regarding health. There MUST be a benefit from it.

Same goes to combat and gold - any point. Choose the effect to gain combat, spend the combat, resolve the rest.


Health is immediately added, because there is no point in splitting it up or using it later. That is definetly very very not the case with combat and gold. As you quoted the rulebook above, there is no pool for health for these reasons. So you saying you count health as a pooled resource is just wrong, so you can't base your arguement on that. (I'm not saying I just proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you're wrong, but you definetly did not prove you're right)
But again, combat and gold doesn't work like that.
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Mac TheMacster
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From the Rulebook:

If an ability grants Gold or Combat, that resource goes into a
resource pool which can be used at any point during the Main
Phase. If an ability grants Health, immediately add it to that
player’s Health total.
Some abilities allow you to choose from multiple effects. Make it
clear to everyone which effect you are choosing.


Gold, combat and health are summed up here for a reason (I think).

"Any point" for gold & combat equals "immediately" for health (my opinion).

It's already clear that an ability could split up in multiple effects - the rules clarify this. And what about the sentence "Make it
clear to everyone which effect you are choosing" !?

Maybe we get an official answer on this - once and for all
 
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This is from a private conversation at the official facebook site of hero realms and I hope WWG won't sue me for posting it




I asked this some months ago as I was a newb.
 
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Mac TheMacster
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Roger the Alien wrote:
This is from a private conversation at the official facebook site of hero realms and I hope WWG won't sue me for posting it




I asked this some months ago as I was a newb.


Ok. Clarification is always good. But remember: It could be a hastily answer on a busy day at office without the correct card or text in mind.

It would not surprise me if the final answer is different - happens too often in the business

Meanwhile - I will play the Assassin more "tamed", and hope so do my opponents

PS: I wonder if other cards are affected by this "rule" as well - Firebomb isn't very clear as well...

 
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Dániel Lányi
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McPain wrote:
From the Rulebook:

If an ability grants Gold or Combat, that resource goes into a
resource pool which can be used at any point during the Main
Phase.
If an ability grants Health, immediately add it to that
player’s Health total.


Gold, combat and health are summed up here for a reason (I think).

"Any point" for gold & combat equals "immediately" for health (my opinion)


They are not summed up, it's two different sentences, one of them talks about a pool, and the other says to immediately add it which means no pool. Any point isn't the same as immediately. You get health immediately because using health gain has no other decisions, you just get it. Using combat and gold requires you to make more decisions. It's a rulebook, if you assume it's not total garbage (it isn't btw) there is a reason they don't use the same word. If it would work the same it would be the same sentence and same word.

McPain wrote:

Ok. Clarification is always good. But remember: It could be a hastily answer on a busy day at office without the correct card or text in mind.

It would not surprise me if the final answer is different - happens too often in the business


Seriously? Official answers aren't good enough for you? Come on...
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Mac TheMacster
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wallwaster wrote:


Seriously? Official answers aren't good enough for you? Come on...


I didn't say that

Come on...
 
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Nickydude wrote:
I know how gold works.


No offense, but you don't.

When you play Elven Gift, TWO things happen.....you get the optional ability to draw and discard, AND you add 2 gold to your pool. These are both unconditional. (i.e you are unconditionally given the option to draw and discard, if that makes sense).

Spending that 2 gold once in your pool is a completely different thing, and is optional.

Where this matters.....if Elven Gift said "Add 2 gold *OR* 2 damage. You may draw then discard". In this case you'd need to decide between adding gold or damage to your pool BEFORE taking the draw/discard.
 
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