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Subject: Mexico wall rss

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Isaac Citrom
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I've been meaning to post for some time regarding the continual fixation of the Left with the word wall. That is to say their grossly uninformed comments about the issue. One class of comments currently running the course is, ha ha, Trump is only gong to build a fence.

The real requirement is for a barrier that will prevent most illegal immigration from Mexico.

Firstly, the barrier doesn't need to be 100% effective. Nothing ever is. The mitigation simply needs to be significantly effective. We try as hard as we might to mitigate murders; they still happen but our efforts are effective enough to mitigate murder to something manageable and tolerable.

Nobody creates an actual wall unless actually necessary. A case where an actual wall is necessary is in military contexts where heavy ordnance is used and a strongly fortified barrier is necessary, a castle for example or a WWII strongpoint.

The Russians built the Berlin Wall as a wall because (a) they're Russians and (b) they used borderline buildings as much as possible, only having to brick up windows.

The Spanish and Norwegians built or are building fence-based barriers. The Saudis have a mind to do the same. The so called Israeli "Apartheid Wall", 708 Km long, is only 6% wall. It is a multi-layered, fence-based infiltration barrier, including a chainlink fencing, barbed wire, anti-vehicle ditch, etc. but most importantly, electronic surveillance. The actual walled segments are in tight urban areas high enough and strong enough to protect against sniping in addition to infiltration.

The purpose of such barriers, as any type of barrier anywhere anytime, is to impede and delay. No fortified structure nor barrier works without surveillance posts. This was true in Roman times as it is true today. One needs as few reaction posts in relation to how fast you can get to the furthest point of attempted infiltration. The better your technology the fewer "guard posts" you need.

During the Vietnam War era, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara attempted a similar concept along the border between North Vietnam and South Vietnam, dropping sensors in the jungle in order to mitigate infiltration by the NLF and the North Vietnamese Army. But, the technology of the day wasn't up to the task. Today, with a myriad of sensor equipment and 24/7 drones, it's a no-brainer. Whenever Hamas tries to infiltrate Israel from Gaza, the IDF is waiting for them.

A chief problem is tunneling under the fence structure, which depending on how many and what types of layers, will be about 50 to 100 yards wide. There is now better and better tunnel detection technology. In any case, this makes infiltration from Mexico much more expensive and consequently reduces illegal crossings in that respect. On the other hand the drug trade will lessen that mitigation somewhat because the cost of tunneling can be shared between the lucrative drug trade and the smuggling of illegal aliens.

All of this is based on preventing civilian illegal economic migrants from infiltrating a border. If one brings greater weaponry to bear, to destroy the barrier, well that's a whole other issue. Now, that's an actual military invasion and would and could be responded to accordingly. It's not what we're talking about and nobody is suggesting that Mexico, as a state actor, wants to invade the United States. Even so, although the optics are unpleasant, one could add additional layers to the fence-based barrier, such as an advertised minefield. But, it would be damned effective at discouraging crossings.

The West Bank security barrier is 700 Km long. The US-Mexico border is 3500 Km, a factor of 5. The industrial and economic capacity of the United States makes emplacing a border fence a no-brainer, though the Left tries as hard as it might to colour the issue not simply infeasible but impossible.

Show me a 13-foot high wall and I'll show you a 13-foot high ladder, is a pretty darn stupid comment if anyone has access to Wikipedia. Another stupidity is that Mexicans will simply flank the fence line on the water. If the US only had some naval or coastguard capabilities (littoral combat patrol ships could come in handy if the US Navy had only thought to build some).

I don't know what President-Elect Trump will do but I do say that if a barrier is erected, I have no doubt whatsoever that it will be very effective at keeping the number of illegal aliens from Mexico to an absolute minimum.
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isaacc wrote:
I don't know what President-Elect Trump will do but I do say that if a barrier is erected, I have no doubt whatsoever that it will be very effective at keeping the number of illegal aliens from Mexico to an absolute minimum.
Seems like quite a leap of faith to go from not knowing what he will do (meaning as little as a token, unmonitored fence to "satisfy" his promise) to it being very effective at keeping illegal aliens to an absolute minimum.

Personally, I'm going to need a little better cost analysis of the effects of illegal immigration, TCO of a "barrier" and different strategy of stricter and adequately enforced rules about hiring illegals.
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Well, Isaac. The biggest difference between Israels containment wall isn't distance. The difference is that in Israel they are keeping out a people who want to kill them, we are wanting to keep out people who want to pick our watermelons and clean our houses.

The optics is a much harder sell here. Who really wants to spend the money to prevent something that is only really a campaign fear tactic?


There is not going to be a wall.
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I'd go with laser turrets.

Lot less unsightly and definitely more impressive.
 
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Geosphere wrote:
I'd go with laser turrets.

Lot less unsightly and definitely more impressive.


I like laser turrets WITH actual concrete walls--mix it up.



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isaacc wrote:
I don't know what President-Elect Trump will do but I do say that if a barrier is erected, I have no doubt whatsoever that it will be very effective at keeping the number of illegal aliens from Mexico to an absolute minimum.
.


It will do nothing whatsoever to effect those illegal immigrants who are in the country due to overstaying various types of visas. From what I remember, that's the majority of illegal immigrants in the US, though I forget exactly where I heard that.
 
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galad2003 wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
I'd go with laser turrets.

Lot less unsightly and definitely more impressive.


I like laser turrets WITH actual concrete walls--mix it up.



Ferret


Bah, a concrete wall with a moat around it with sharks with lasers on their heads in the moat. Gotta do this shit right.


The walls obscure the view of people getting hit with laser turrets.
 
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isaacc wrote:

I've been meaning to post for some time regarding the continual fixation of the Left with the word wall. That is to say their grossly uninformed comments about the issue. One class of comments currently running the course is, ha ha, Trump is only gong to build a fence.

The real requirement is for a barrier that will prevent most illegal immigration from Mexico.

Firstly, the barrier doesn't need to be 100% effective. Nothing ever is. The mitigation simply needs to be significantly effective. We try as hard as we might to mitigate murders; they still happen but our efforts are effective enough to mitigate murder to something manageable and tolerable.

Nobody creates an actual wall unless actually necessary. A case where an actual wall is necessary is in military contexts where heavy ordnance is used and a strongly fortified barrier is necessary, a castle for example or a WWII strongpoint.

The Russians built the Berlin Wall as a wall because (a) they're Russians and (b) they used borderline buildings as much as possible, only having to brick up windows.

The Spanish and Norwegians built or are building fence-based barriers. The Saudis have a mind to do the same. The so called Israeli "Apartheid Wall", 708 Km long, is only 6% wall. It is a multi-layered, fence-based infiltration barrier, including a chainlink fencing, barbed wire, anti-vehicle ditch, etc. but most importantly, electronic surveillance. The actual walled segments are in tight urban areas high enough and strong enough to protect against sniping in addition to infiltration.

The purpose of such barriers, as any type of barrier anywhere anytime, is to impede and delay. No fortified structure nor barrier works without surveillance posts. This was true in Roman times as it is true today. One needs as few reaction posts in relation to how fast you can get to the furthest point of attempted infiltration. The better your technology the fewer "guard posts" you need.

During the Vietnam War era, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara attempted a similar concept along the border between North Vietnam and South Vietnam, dropping sensors in the jungle in order to mitigate infiltration by the NLF and the North Vietnamese Army. But, the technology of the day wasn't up to the task. Today, with a myriad of sensor equipment and 24/7 drones, it's a no-brainer. Whenever Hamas tries to infiltrate Israel from Gaza, the IDF is waiting for them.

A chief problem is tunneling under the fence structure, which depending on how many and what types of layers, will be about 50 to 100 yards wide. There is now better and better tunnel detection technology. In any case, this makes infiltration from Mexico much more expensive and consequently reduces illegal crossings in that respect. On the other hand the drug trade will lessen that mitigation somewhat because the cost of tunneling can be shared between the lucrative drug trade and the smuggling of illegal aliens.

All of this is based on preventing civilian illegal economic migrants from infiltrating a border. If one brings greater weaponry to bear, to destroy the barrier, well that's a whole other issue. Now, that's an actual military invasion and would and could be responded to accordingly. It's not what we're talking about and nobody is suggesting that Mexico, as a state actor, wants to invade the United States. Even so, although the optics are unpleasant, one could add additional layers to the fence-based barrier, such as an advertised minefield. But, it would be damned effective at discouraging crossings.

The West Bank security barrier is 700 Km long. The US-Mexico border is 3500 Km, a factor of 5. The industrial and economic capacity of the United States makes emplacing a border fence a no-brainer, though the Left tries as hard as it might to colour the issue not simply infeasible but impossible.

Show me a 13-foot high wall and I'll show you a 13-foot high ladder, is a pretty darn stupid comment if anyone has access to Wikipedia. Another stupidity is that Mexicans will simply flank the fence line on the water. If the US only had some naval or coastguard capabilities (littoral combat patrol ships could come in handy if the US Navy had only thought to build some).

I don't know what President-Elect Trump will do but I do say that if a barrier is erected, I have no doubt whatsoever that it will be very effective at keeping the number of illegal aliens from Mexico to an absolute minimum.
.


Since almost half of illegals do not come over the border your ignorance of the nature of the situation is quite stunning. Then again maybe not.
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Geosphere wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
I'd go with laser turrets.

Lot less unsightly and definitely more impressive.
I like laser turrets WITH actual concrete walls--mix it up.



Ferret
Bah, a concrete wall with a moat around it with sharks with lasers on their heads in the moat. Gotta do this shit right.
The walls obscure the view of people getting hit with laser turrets.
Which is why we need cyborg eagles with laser turrets on their heads. The mobility allows us to dispense with the wall. Since they are cyborgs they can be equipped with built-in GoPros so we can get great YouTube gun camera videos. And they are eagles, symbolizing our commitment to freedom.
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Kumitedad wrote:

Since almost half of illegals do not come over the border your ignorance of the nature of the situation is quite stunning. Then again maybe not.


They don't? Do they like magically *appear* in America? Like in Star Trek? Please, tell us ignorant Deplorables of this awesome wizardry.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:

Since almost half of illegals do not come over the border your ignorance of the nature of the situation is quite stunning. Then again maybe not.


They don't? Do they like magically *appear* in America? Like in Star Trek? Please, tell us ignorant Deplorables of this awesome wizardry.


Hes going to throw a technicality at you like, they come UNDER the border.
I bet they are all breathing hard though.
 
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Perhaps giant speakers blearing South Korean propaganda to Mexico across the wall? I feel it's a great aesthetic addition to the laser turrets.
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Good piece, Issac. The Israel wall is approximately 400 miles in length. The US's southern border is nearly 2,000 miles in length. Monitoring a wall of that length is significantly more difficult - I would think anyway. I'm hardly an expert. The cost is also high just to construct the wall, let alone increase the number of people needed as guards along it. $6.4 billion. In Israel's case, it was an easier sell given the number of Hamas terrorist attacks from people crossing the border. Here, the concern is of a different type - mostly economic. So the political will to spend that kind of money probably isn't there.
 
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TheDashi wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:

Since almost half of illegals do not come over the border your ignorance of the nature of the situation is quite stunning. Then again maybe not.


They don't? Do they like magically *appear* in America? Like in Star Trek? Please, tell us ignorant Deplorables of this awesome wizardry.


Hes going to throw a technicality at you like, they come UNDER the border.
I bet they are all breathing hard though.


We find yearly tunnels but that's typically fueled by drug running. I still think the best I saw was someone building a ramp and getting their jeep stuck on the fence attempting to jump the wall.
 
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isaacc wrote:

I've been meaning to post for some time regarding the continual fixation of the Left with the word wall. That is to say their grossly uninformed comments about the issue. One class of comments currently running the course is, ha ha, Trump is only gong to build a fence.

The real requirement is for a barrier that will prevent most illegal immigration from Mexico.

Firstly, the barrier doesn't need to be 100% effective. Nothing ever is. The mitigation simply needs to be significantly effective. We try as hard as we might to mitigate murders; they still happen but our efforts are effective enough to mitigate murder to something manageable and tolerable.

Nobody creates an actual wall unless actually necessary. A case where an actual wall is necessary is in military contexts where heavy ordnance is used and a strongly fortified barrier is necessary, a castle for example or a WWII strongpoint.

The Russians built the Berlin Wall as a wall because (a) they're Russians and (b) they used borderline buildings as much as possible, only having to brick up windows.

The Spanish and Norwegians built or are building fence-based barriers. The Saudis have a mind to do the same. The so called Israeli "Apartheid Wall", 708 Km long, is only 6% wall. It is a multi-layered, fence-based infiltration barrier, including a chainlink fencing, barbed wire, anti-vehicle ditch, etc. but most importantly, electronic surveillance. The actual walled segments are in tight urban areas high enough and strong enough to protect against sniping in addition to infiltration.

The purpose of such barriers, as any type of barrier anywhere anytime, is to impede and delay. No fortified structure nor barrier works without surveillance posts. This was true in Roman times as it is true today. One needs as few reaction posts in relation to how fast you can get to the furthest point of attempted infiltration. The better your technology the fewer "guard posts" you need.

During the Vietnam War era, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara attempted a similar concept along the border between North Vietnam and South Vietnam, dropping sensors in the jungle in order to mitigate infiltration by the NLF and the North Vietnamese Army. But, the technology of the day wasn't up to the task. Today, with a myriad of sensor equipment and 24/7 drones, it's a no-brainer. Whenever Hamas tries to infiltrate Israel from Gaza, the IDF is waiting for them.

A chief problem is tunneling under the fence structure, which depending on how many and what types of layers, will be about 50 to 100 yards wide. There is now better and better tunnel detection technology. In any case, this makes infiltration from Mexico much more expensive and consequently reduces illegal crossings in that respect. On the other hand the drug trade will lessen that mitigation somewhat because the cost of tunneling can be shared between the lucrative drug trade and the smuggling of illegal aliens.

All of this is based on preventing civilian illegal economic migrants from infiltrating a border. If one brings greater weaponry to bear, to destroy the barrier, well that's a whole other issue. Now, that's an actual military invasion and would and could be responded to accordingly. It's not what we're talking about and nobody is suggesting that Mexico, as a state actor, wants to invade the United States. Even so, although the optics are unpleasant, one could add additional layers to the fence-based barrier, such as an advertised minefield. But, it would be damned effective at discouraging crossings.

The West Bank security barrier is 700 Km long. The US-Mexico border is 3500 Km, a factor of 5. The industrial and economic capacity of the United States makes emplacing a border fence a no-brainer, though the Left tries as hard as it might to colour the issue not simply infeasible but impossible.

Show me a 13-foot high wall and I'll show you a 13-foot high ladder, is a pretty darn stupid comment if anyone has access to Wikipedia. Another stupidity is that Mexicans will simply flank the fence line on the water. If the US only had some naval or coastguard capabilities (littoral combat patrol ships could come in handy if the US Navy had only thought to build some).

I don't know what President-Elect Trump will do but I do say that if a barrier is erected, I have no doubt whatsoever that it will be very effective at keeping the number of illegal aliens from Mexico to an absolute minimum.
.
You are over-analyzing this. The wall is a joke. Nothing more needs to be said.
 
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Can the US muster the technology and materials to build a series of walls and fences across the southern border? Of course. Do I want to pay the trillions of dollars to do so? No. And what about Canada? Thousands of people cross the border there illegally every month. Are we going to build an even longer wall across our border with Canada? Never considered because, you know, we want to keep out brown people.

What's the real solution? Beefed-up border security through the Border Patrol north and south. Humane treatment of people caught trying to sneak across the border, but a 24-hour turnaround to deport them back to Mexico or Canada. And a massive crackdown on US employers who hire illegals knowingly or unknowingly, with severe penalties for those convicted of doing so. As Isaac said, it won't stop illegals from entering the US, but it will mitigate it.

As an aside here, last year, when the Children's Migration boiled up from Central America, a white, deeply religious female co-worker (from Texas) who was pregnant at the time agreed to my sarcastic remark that maybe she would prefer we mount twin M2 Browning machine guns at 50-year intervals along the border and mow down the little tykes. Why? Because, you know, brown people.
 
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TheDashi wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:

Since almost half of illegals do not come over the border your ignorance of the nature of the situation is quite stunning. Then again maybe not.


They don't? Do they like magically *appear* in America? Like in Star Trek? Please, tell us ignorant Deplorables of this awesome wizardry.


Hes going to throw a technicality at you like, they come UNDER the border.
I bet they are all breathing hard though.


Actually the technicalities are called facts and government research

http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2016/may/16/ke...

You have anything to actually gainsay this or are you (and Tripp) merely going to rely are your usual public display of idiocy?
 
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He's backing off the physical wall idea so fast it wouldn't surprise me if he tells us he actually meant a "conceptual" wall.

If we go with laser turrets, I recommend we get Michael Crichton involved. I stopped reading his nonsense when every book was like he didn't know how to finish it so why not fuckin laser turrets.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:

Since almost half of illegals do not come over the border your ignorance of the nature of the situation is quite stunning. Then again maybe not.


They don't? Do they like magically *appear* in America? Like in Star Trek? Please, tell us ignorant Deplorables of this awesome wizardry.

They fly there and don't leave. Are you assuming all illegals are from Mexico or something?
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Can we hire Michael Bey as a subcontractor?
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I don't think the mexico wall is ludicrous because it's impossible, it's obviously possible, I think it's ludicrous because it's a huge expense to fix an imaginary problem.
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Trump's wall is definitely possible to build. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. The issue is whether or not that's the best way to spend money on illegal immigration from Mexico.

I view it more like trying to "win the war on drugs". It's unwinnable and costs the United States billions of dollars a year to fight. Drug traffickers have already built numerous tunnels to funnel drugs into the United States so it's easy to believe people could be funneled through them as well.

The wall is a moronic solution to a complex economic problem.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/02/us/us-mexico-border-wall-t...
 
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mrspank wrote:
Trump's wall is definitely possible to build. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. The issue is whether or not that's the best way to spend money on illegal immigration from Mexico.

I view it more like trying to "win the war on drugs". It's unwinnable and costs the United States billions of dollars a year to fight. Drug traffickers have already built numerous tunnels to funnel drugs into the United States so it's easy to believe people could be funneled through them as well.

The wall is a moronic solution to a complex economic problem.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/02/us/us-mexico-border-wall-t...


I bet there would be more to show for after spending 1 trillion dollars, than Obamas trillion dollar stimulus.
 
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TheDashi wrote:
mrspank wrote:
Trump's wall is definitely possible to build. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. The issue is whether or not that's the best way to spend money on illegal immigration from Mexico.

I view it more like trying to "win the war on drugs". It's unwinnable and costs the United States billions of dollars a year to fight. Drug traffickers have already built numerous tunnels to funnel drugs into the United States so it's easy to believe people could be funneled through them as well.

The wall is a moronic solution to a complex economic problem.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/02/us/us-mexico-border-wall-t...


I bet there would be more to show for after spending 1 trillion dollars, than Obamas trillion dollar stimulus.


Yeah, that stimulus package didn't help the economy recover at all. Just like the bank bailouts didn't work and neither did saving the car companies.

We'd be living in a conservative utopia right now if the stimulus, bank bailout and car company bailout didn't happen.

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Geosphere wrote:
I'd go with laser turrets.

Lot less unsightly and definitely more impressive.


Sure, fine, go with the laser turrets. Just think twice before including a 2 meter thermal exhaust port in the design...
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