Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
51 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

The Others» Forums » General

Subject: Trutling and other first game questions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Joe Nothin'
msg tools
Avatar
I was really looking forward to this game - I've backed it on the 1$ level and was planning on buying the whole deal when I have some spare money. A friend backed the KS and got it, so I recently got to play it - that first game was kinda Meh, and I was wondering about a few things.

We've played the terror scenario where the sin player moves down on the apocalypse track when any district has 2 or more fire tokens, I forgot it's name. We've managed to beat the first three missions by the middle of the second round; up to that point the game was good but not great, with not enough items coming in and no real growth for the heroes - there just wasn't enough to do, really, but what we could do was fun and interesting enough to keep us going.

However, once we've got to the final mission, killing the controller and the avatar, and the game took a real nose-dive - from the start of the game the sin player pulled up all his forces into a single district, which he kept lighting on fire every turn, making it an impregnable fortress that we couldn't get into at all. I tried going in and clearing it on the first turn, because I saw where it was heading, buy by the start of my turn there were already 2 abominations, an acolyte and the controller inside the district, so when I tried attacking in hopes I'd get to at-least kill the controller, I just died a horrid death without doing much of anything. By the time the last mission started, that district was jam-packed with fire tokens and monsters, and the avatar spawned there as well. That district held one of the satellite controls, and while we did take control of the other and blasted one abomination per turn inside that zone, it wasn't really enough.

At that point the game ground into a halt, as we ran around buying upgrades and passing the turn, and the sin player not having anything to do. There was little reason for us to kill his monsters, but also very little for us to fear anything other than his fortress - we blasted abominations with ease. Eventually someone ran in to kill the controller and died horribly while we all watched, and a few actions later the Sin player got cocky and sent the avatar out (using a card) and failed to kill his target, which allowed for a corruption fueled counter on his reaction that killed both hero and avatar - going over the rules we've decided that it was a hero win, but no one was proud of that.

Here's what I'm wondering:
First, did we miss a rule or something? Is there a stacking limit for fire tokens or monsters? It seems really weird that the sin player could setup his forces like that - it's powerful, but really boring for all parties involved and one would hope for a mechanical incentive that would push the sin player out to do more interesting things.

Second, is turtling really such a good strategy in other scenarios? I've glossed over the other missions and most seem to suggest that yes, it is a winning move in most situations.

Last, did anyone else experience the game grinding down to a halt on its later two-thirds? It seems that between the very few available ways to get gear and grow in power and the power of turtling this would happen in every game, but I'm hoping I'm wrong.

I really want to love this game, please help me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erik Weidenbach
msg tools
Havent played this mission yet, but could the Avatar really be spawned there? Normaly this would require a free nest token, dont think there where any free left in that space.

It was often stated that turtling is very helpful for the sin player, but frustrating for everyone elese (and at least boring for the sin player). What I ask myself is, why are so many sin players doing this in the first place. I play to have fun not to win at all cost, even if the game then sucks. complete turtling defeats the purpose of the game, even though it is allowed
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Weber
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I think Erik is right, the Avater should have been summoned to a free nest, not into an already packed building.
I also get the impression that you didn't use corruption sufficiently. You say you didn't manage to kill the Controller when you entered the building, but if you take max corruption before the fight you should have 4 automatic hits, thus making it possible to kill at least the controller (aside from the actual dice you rolled). So if you are prepared to sacrifice one hero, taking out at least some monsters shouldn't be much of a problem.

I also would suggest trying to block the way to the building once you realize the sin player is trying to mass up monsters. Remember that monsters are not allowed to leave a space with a hero in it.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Nothin'
msg tools
Avatar
webs1 wrote:
I think Erik is right, the Avater should have been summoned to a free nest, not into an already packed building.
I also get the impression that you didn't use corruption sufficiently. You say you didn't manage to kill the Controller when you entered the building, but if you take max corruption before the fight you should have 4 automatic hits, thus making it possible to kill at least the controller (aside from the actual dice you rolled). So if you are prepared to sacrifice one hero, taking out at least some monsters shouldn't be much of a problem.

I also would suggest trying to block the way to the building once you realize the sin player is trying to mass up monsters. Remember that monsters are not allowed to leave a space with a hero in it.



He must have spawned on a nearby printed nest and moved in with his reaction than. We weren't blocking all the entrances at that point because we were still finishing up the 3rd mission, clearing an alter. We moved in to block the entrances later on though.

I was under the impression you can only take one voluntary corruption each time - was I wrong? Can I just go overload and take it all at once? That seems weird and anti-thematic, but so is not being able to shoot into a building so it might indeed be true.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tomer Mlynarsky
Israel
flag msg tools
A couple of things:


1) You can break turtuling by simply always killing more than the sin player can bring in a turn. So if you're 4 heroes, you need to kill 5 or more monsters and you're ahead.

2) Did you use the orbital strike? Best way to reduce monsters in a crowded area.

3) Look for ways to teleport inside a crowded area and bypass fire\corruption. Some heroes give these abilities, some items as well.

4) Remember that heroes can leave spots with monsters for 1 wound total. Not 1 per monster. And monsters can't leave a spot with heroes. No matter which ones - even the Avatar.
So if the sin player starts covering up a spot, just start blocking his entry passages.

5) How long did the game take? The Sin player can only put the fire once per round. I've said this elsewhere, but all of my games have taken 2 rounds or possibly gotten to start of 3rd at best. How much fire could the Sin player put in there?

I don't have the scenario in front of me, but I'm guessing he can't put both fire tokens in the same spot.

So that's what? 2-3 fires at most? Surely it can't be that big of a deal?
If the Sin player leaves you alone, run and heal out then come back and suck up a point or 2 of wounds.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Weber
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
JoeNothin wrote:
webs1 wrote:
I think Erik is right, the Avater should have been summoned to a free nest, not into an already packed building.
I also get the impression that you didn't use corruption sufficiently. You say you didn't manage to kill the Controller when you entered the building, but if you take max corruption before the fight you should have 4 automatic hits, thus making it possible to kill at least the controller (aside from the actual dice you rolled). So if you are prepared to sacrifice one hero, taking out at least some monsters shouldn't be much of a problem.

I also would suggest trying to block the way to the building once you realize the sin player is trying to mass up monsters. Remember that monsters are not allowed to leave a space with a hero in it.



He must have spawned on a nearby printed nest and moved in with his reaction than. We weren't blocking all the entrances at that point because we were still finishing up the 3rd mission, clearing an alter. We moved in to block the entrances later on though.

I was under the impression you can only take one voluntary corruption each time - was I wrong? Can I just go overload and take it all at once? That seems weird and anti-thematic, but so is not being able to shoot into a building so it might indeed be true.



You are right that you can't take more than one corruption per dice roll. However, since you have at least two dice rolls per hero per turn (more if the sin player attacks you), and you usually get more involuntary corruption from tokens/fights, you should be able to reach a higher level soon.
I'm assuming you played with the standard heroes? Did you make proper use of their abilities (e.g. Rose can move an acolyte or abomination one space per turn, which means that together with Leahs ability of giving her an extra turn she should be able to move three monsters out of the crowded house in one round.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Weber
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
GrandMasterFox wrote:
A couple of things:


1) You can break turtuling by simply always killing more than the sin player can bring in a turn. So if you're 4 heroes, you need to kill 5 or more monsters and you're ahead.

2) Did you use the orbital strike? Best way to reduce monsters in a crowded area.

3) Look for ways to teleport inside a crowded area and bypass fire\corruption. Some heroes give these abilities, some items as well.

4) Remember that heroes can leave spots with monsters for 1 wound total. Not 1 per monster. And monsters can't leave a spot with heroes. No matter which ones - even the Avatar.
So if the sin player starts covering up a spot, just start blocking his entry passages.

5) How long did the game take? The Sin player can only put the fire once per round. I've said this elsewhere, but all of my games have taken 2 rounds or possibly gotten to start of 3rd at best. How much fire could the Sin player put in there?

I don't have the scenario in front of me, but I'm guessing he can't put both fire tokens in the same spot.

So that's what? 2-3 fires at most? Surely it can't be that big of a deal?
If the Sin player leaves you alone, run and heal out then come back and suck up a point or 2 of wounds.



The scenario is Haven in Flames, and in fact, of the two fire tokens the sin player places at the end of each round, each must be on a different space.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Nothin'
msg tools
Avatar
GrandMasterFox wrote:
A couple of things:


1) You can break turtuling by simply always killing more than the sin player can bring in a turn. So if you're 4 heroes, you need to kill 5 or more monsters and you're ahead.

2) Did you use the orbital strike? Best way to reduce monsters in a crowded area.

3) Look for ways to teleport inside a crowded area and bypass fire\corruption. Some heroes give these abilities, some items as well.

4) Remember that heroes can leave spots with monsters for 1 wound total. Not 1 per monster. And monsters can't leave a spot with heroes. No matter which ones - even the Avatar.
So if the sin player starts covering up a spot, just start blocking his entry passages.

5) How long did the game take? The Sin player can only put the fire once per round. I've said this elsewhere, but all of my games have taken 2 rounds or possibly gotten to start of 3rd at best. How much fire could the Sin player put in there?

I don't have the scenario in front of me, but I'm guessing he can't put both fire tokens in the same spot.

So that's what? 2-3 fires at most? Surely it can't be that big of a deal?
If the Sin player leaves you alone, run and heal out then come back and suck up a point or 2 of wounds.



1. You actually need 6, because the sin player can bring in an acolyte when you start combat. That's alot of monsters to kill and very hard to do when they are ll in one spot.

2. We did; however, there were two spots with in and one was the stronghold. We used the other every turn, but it wasn't enough

5. We won on turn 4. That spot started with 2 fire tokens, and his acolytes were the firemen. He also draw that red girl that causes fire when she fights, so while he did place only one fire at that spot on each turn, he was up to 7 fires there on the last turn. My hero had a hazmat suit and the hacker, so I could theoretically go in and win the game, but it wasn't a sure thing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Peacock
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
It seems like everyone is over looking ranged combat. Gear up Heroes with ranged, they get +1 dice for EACH Hero in their space. Have one hero in front to prevent reaction to the shooter. The shooter can roll more than 10 dice with some upgrades/corruption. and heroes in the same spot. It will alter the Sin Players Turtling Strategy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Weber
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
JaspeLoedm wrote:
It seems like everyone is over looking ranged combat. Gear up Heroes with ranged, they get +1 dice for EACH Hero in their space. Have one hero in front to prevent reaction to the shooter. The shooter can roll more than 10 dice with some upgrades/corruption. and heroes in the same spot. It will alter the Sin Players Turtling Strategy.


When the Monsters are inside a Building, as is the Case here, you can't shoot there. So, Nobody forgot that, it's just Not possible.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tomer Mlynarsky
Israel
flag msg tools
webs1 wrote:
JaspeLoedm wrote:
It seems like everyone is over looking ranged combat. Gear up Heroes with ranged, they get +1 dice for EACH Hero in their space. Have one hero in front to prevent reaction to the shooter. The shooter can roll more than 10 dice with some upgrades/corruption. and heroes in the same spot. It will alter the Sin Players Turtling Strategy.


When the Monsters are inside a Building, as is the Case here, you can't shoot there. So, Nobody forgot that, it's just Not possible.

I'm guessing he meant shoot them before they get into the building.


It just seemed obvious so I didn't bother mention it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tomer Mlynarsky
Israel
flag msg tools
JoeNothin wrote:

1. You actually need 6, because the sin player can bring in an acolyte when you start combat. That's alot of monsters to kill and very hard to do when they are ll in one spot.

2. We did; however, there were two spots with in and one was the stronghold. We used the other every turn, but it wasn't enough

5. We won on turn 4. That spot started with 2 fire tokens, and his acolytes were the firemen. He also draw that red girl that causes fire when she fights, so while he did place only one fire at that spot on each turn, he was up to 7 fires there on the last turn. My hero had a hazmat suit and the hacker, so I could theoretically go in and win the game, but it wasn't a sure thing.

1) One group I had constantly avoided killing accolytes just because of that.

5) Turn 4? That sounds a bit slow compared to all the games we had.
Mind if I ask for a bit more info?

What Sin? Accolytes are Firemen I get it. Who were the heroes?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
fightcitymayor
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Proprietor and Chairman Emeritus of The Naughty Palace
Avatar
mb
I'm like, what is "trutling?!"
Ohhhh... turtling... now I get it.



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emivaldo Sousa
Brazil
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There are ways to avoid turtling, but they are contextual, sometimes very luck dependent and you might have to sacrifice precious time that should have been spent completing objectives.

It is doable but not always possible or entertaining. That said, even then you might win the game if you manage to get enough equipment and have a high enough corruption to make the suicidal final attack.

I don't think you have played wrong, but other missions, types of Sin and acolytes can change that dynamic a bit, although piling up monsters can be efficient, it is not always the best call.

In any case, Sin's players can often apply half-assed tactics (like turtling) and still offer a challenge. Hero player's on the other hand have little to no margin for error or bad luck.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Weber
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I think in this particular case the Sin player had a lot of things going for him - the fire acoyltes, the mission, getting that specific Hell Club member.
As for the setup, did he chose the combination of mission and acolytes? If so, I guess he had some experience in playing the game and kind of gamed it to his advantage.
I wouldn't let him chose the mission again in that case - either insist on another one or decide it randomly.

Overall, I think while you reacted to the early signs of turtling, in the next game you'd be even more prepared to spot it and react accordingly early enough to thwart his plans.

But, as someone said before, I'm surprised the Sin player thought it worthwhile to use such a bland and unfun tactic just to win. There are surely more ways to really react as intended to the FAITH team that make for a fun competitive game.

That being said (and because I hear this sort of reasoning all the time here on BGG), thematically turtling really makes sense. A boss monster surrounded by minions to protect it? Ordinary horror/Sci-Fi action trope.

And lastly, if you really feel that the ability to turtle hurts the game, a house rule might be in order - capping the number of monsters/tokens allowed per space might work well and also make thematical sense (buildings get crowded, fire can only be so hot).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Peacock
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb

If Ranged guys are laying down covering fire and the Sins needs to go Turtling inside a building, Then one guy can be moving an orbital Satellite in and out of the building to whittle down those guys, The Sins has to respawn from non blocked Nests so he's not going to have time to re-establish moving everyone back to the building every turn while the Now powered up Faith Team walks all over him. The reason I say now powered up is due to the Sins spending so much time and energy piling guys inside a building, The Faith team and really upgrade up, complete all the objectives they need to until being forced to deal with the Turtle Room. It's not hard to get a Faith Dude or Dudette to roll 10 dice or more and clear out a room.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Weber
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
JaspeLoedm wrote:

If Ranged guys are laying down covering fire and the Sins needs to go Turtling inside a building, Then one guy can be moving an orbital Satellite in and out of the building to whittle down those guys, The Sins has to respawn from non blocked Nests so he's not going to have time to re-establish moving everyone back to the building every turn while the Now powered up Faith Team walks all over him. The reason I say now powered up is due to the Sins spending so much time and energy piling guys inside a building, The Faith team and really upgrade up, complete all the objectives they need to until being forced to deal with the Turtle Room. It's not hard to get a Faith Dude or Dudette to roll 10 dice or more and clear out a room.


I think the usefulness of covering fire is partly due to the size of the map. The scenario we are talking about here has a very narrow map A, which I guess they used, so it will be easier for the sins player to move monsters directly to the turtling room in one go after spawning them.
Apart from that I am with you - although it really doesn't sound like fun to be forced to play like that.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Nothin'
msg tools
Avatar
GrandMasterFox wrote:
JoeNothin wrote:

1. You actually need 6, because the sin player can bring in an acolyte when you start combat. That's alot of monsters to kill and very hard to do when they are ll in one spot.

2. We did; however, there were two spots with in and one was the stronghold. We used the other every turn, but it wasn't enough

5. We won on turn 4. That spot started with 2 fire tokens, and his acolytes were the firemen. He also draw that red girl that causes fire when she fights, so while he did place only one fire at that spot on each turn, he was up to 7 fires there on the last turn. My hero had a hazmat suit and the hacker, so I could theoretically go in and win the game, but it wasn't a sure thing.

1) One group I had constantly avoided killing accolytes just because of that.

5) Turn 4? That sounds a bit slow compared to all the games we had.
Mind if I ask for a bit more info?

What Sin? Accolytes are Firemen I get it. Who were the heroes?


The game did slow down around turn 2, that was actually the problem.

The first mission was killing 4 enemies - we got that done in 5 actions, the first half of the first turn. The second mission was either clearing up 4 fires or ending the turn in a district with no monsters 4 times, and those districts got protected from fire. We went and got that done by the 2nd action of turn 2.

Afar that we've had to kill an alter - it was a cleanse action that needed 3 successes; this was a hard one. We've had one in a cleared area under our control, but we just didn't roll enough eyes or burst symbols to win - we've sent the fixer with 4 dice, with +1 die from gear and +1 from taking corruption, but he failed. So than we to go in there, each on his turn, trying to help him. It took us most of the second half of turn 2 to achieve, but we got it eventually, after 5 more actions.

Than we got the last mission, killing the controller and the avatar; he spawned outside the stronghold and just walked inside immediately. At that point the stronghold had 5 fire tokens inside it - 2 from the start of the game, 1 from the fireman, and another 2 for each of the turns that passed by. The sin player didn't place any fire tokens anywhere else, because he didn't want to run out of tokens, and used all his reactions to move monsters into the stronghold, so there were already a ton of monsters in there.

Than on turn 3 we went around gearing up, killing straggling monsters and taking control of the sky-laser, but mostly passing and doing nothing - we didn't have enough gear and there were only three gear spots on the board so we had to just wait a turn until we got another one.. We ended the turn blocking most of the approaches to the stronghold, but not all of them. And than we won on turn 4.

The biggest time waster was bad rolls, but also the sin players started building his base of power on the first reaction, so we didn't really have time to do anything.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Nothin'
msg tools
Avatar
webs1 wrote:
JaspeLoedm wrote:
It seems like everyone is over looking ranged combat. Gear up Heroes with ranged, they get +1 dice for EACH Hero in their space. Have one hero in front to prevent reaction to the shooter. The shooter can roll more than 10 dice with some upgrades/corruption. and heroes in the same spot. It will alter the Sin Players Turtling Strategy.


When the Monsters are inside a Building, as is the Case here, you can't shoot there. So, Nobody forgot that, it's just Not possible.


Yeah, we couldn't shoot inside. First thing I'd house-rule, though, as it seems really stupid and just shuts the game down. I don't understand this rule.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tomer Mlynarsky
Israel
flag msg tools
JoeNothin wrote:

Yeah, we couldn't shoot inside. First thing I'd house-rule, though, as it seems really stupid and just shuts the game down. I don't understand this rule.


Because without that rule, the game is absurdly easy. The players can corner a building and then shoot from the outside without the monsters being able to react at all.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tomer Mlynarsky
Israel
flag msg tools
Wait, now I'm seriously confused... You won? I must have missed that in the op. I can't see how can someone complain about a certain strategy if it didn't eventually work...


Anyhow, from what I'm hearing, the altar with bad rolls was the main issue here. What I think you should have done is, go and cleanse other stuff so that you can take corruption.

You could have gotten in with more than just 1 die roll from the corruption test.


Either way, it seems like you just had one specific scenario with lots and lots of fire so that was a bit of an issue. I don't think that particular issue should be in returning games.


P.S
Which Sin was it?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stuart Holttum
United Kingdom
Southend on Sea
Essex
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JoeNothin wrote:
.....used all his reactions to move monsters into the stronghold.....


I think this is where you lost the game. Your faith team is trolling round the map, merrily putting out fires and popping stray monsters, thinking "gee, this is easy"....while ignoring the string of monsters all shambling as fast as their tentacles can carry them in to the big glowing building.

I think your problem was not so much the turtling, but that you let the turtling happen. If your Heroes find that the Sin player is NOT making life difficult for them by hurling monsters at them with his reactions, then you need to ask why - and if the answer is because he is building up a massive horde, then at least some of the heroes need to be focussed on stopping that happen, as opposed to achieving goals.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Weber
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
We still don't know which Heroes were played with.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Chew
United States
Concord Township
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Attack dog
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
webs1 wrote:
We still don't know which Heroes were played with.


Which definitely matters. If the sin player builds an optimal combination the heroes get that opportunity too. The order those are done in the rules is pretty important to balance.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Nothin'
msg tools
Avatar
GrandMasterFox wrote:
Wait, now I'm seriously confused... You won? I must have missed that in the op. I can't see how can someone complain about a certain strategy if it didn't eventually work...


Anyhow, from what I'm hearing, the altar with bad rolls was the main issue here. What I think you should have done is, go and cleanse other stuff so that you can take corruption.

You could have gotten in with more than just 1 die roll from the corruption test.


Either way, it seems like you just had one specific scenario with lots and lots of fire so that was a bit of an issue. I don't think that particular issue should be in returning games.


P.S
Which Sin was it?


The problem wasn't that we won or lost, it was that the game was boring. We won because the sin player sent out his avatar to fight us outside his stronghold, and I think he did it because he was the owner of the game and could see we were all so very bored by how the game was turning out. It doesn't seem to me that I'd play the game any differently, because the stronghold strategy seems very solid - which is a problem, since it's boring and I don't want to buy a game I have to play sub-optimally to enjoy.

And yes, the alter-rolls were also an issue, as they too were very boring. We had this issue on another spot, where we tried to cleanse a nest token and just rolled bad (6 dice, none with an eye or a burst symbol!), so nothing happened and we just wasted a couple of turns.

I don't really care that we won, it wasn't fun to win at that point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.