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William Curtis
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Hello and welcome to all fans (and detractors) of Shadows of Brimstone...

Today I will be going over the new Kickstarter and why it is a Value to players of the original Shadows of Brimstone.

1. Shadows is such a varied game that heroes and enemies from an Alternate Timeline Japan can be easily explained away.

This allows heroes and villains from Forbidden Fortress (henceforth FF) to be added to the base game with no qualms... A Huge Animated Statue? Kill it...

2. Is there a Monetary reason to back the Kickstarter rather than buy at retail?

This is a sticky question as it has a different answer for each person. I can say that there is a definite savings at Kickstarter prices over retail but you may not want or value everything they have added. So the best answer I can give is that it meets the Value vs Cost for me. (see Math at the bottom for where my calculations are)

3. I don't like the Japanese theme and as such I don't see any value...

See #1, but also note that the Trederran Hero alone can be valued at $50-150 ebay value alone... so back at Sumo and sell what does not interest you.

4. I backed their first Kickstarter and don't have my stuff yet...

Look, they sent the base games to everyone when it was promised to arrive (or relatively close). They did explain that there would be a delay due to Over-Promising, and yes it is a long time. But the Value that the base games alone has more than covered the Outlaw Pledge. Mine Cart (and Outlaw backers) had the option to add shipping for wave 1.5, yes this was expensive ($150) for non-US backers ($50 for US backers). But the valuation for a mine cart backer was $1700+ retail value, even at a most expensive Mine Cart ($500) this is a 33% cost to you of retail, even adding that extra $50 or $150 you are still saving an amazing amount of money and I am sure that we all know it will arrive.

Thank you for listening, just looking to start discussions...

(Note that Exclusives are not included in ANY math below)
Base game - Retail $100 - Discount Retail $70
Expansion 1 - Retail $80 - Discount Retail $50-60
Sumo - No Retail - Ebay $50-150
Daimyo - No Retail - Ebay $75-150
Trederran Veteran - No Retail - Ebay $50-150
Alt Genders (x10) - Retail (8x) $8 ($64) - No Discount Retail
Decks (4x current) - Retail (4x) $10 ($40) - No Discount Retail
Flesh Mites - Retail $20 - Discount Retail $15
Thunder Warriors - Retail $20 - Discount Retail $15
Akaname - Retail $20 - Discount Retail $15
Onmorake - Retail $20 - Discount Retail $15
Takobake - Retail $20 - Discount Retail $15
Jorogumo - Retail $30 - Discount Retail $20-25
Allies to 650k - Retail $30? - Discount Retail $20-25
Scourge Dead - Retail $20 - Discount Retail $15
Goryu - Retail $20 - Discount Retail $15
Red Ronin - Retail $15 - Discount Retail $10
Social Goal Ninjas - Retail $40 - Discount Retail $30-35
Undead Daimyo - Retail $15 - Discount Retail $10
Social Goal Cynder Fiends - Retail $20 - Discount Retail $15
____________

Past BoB Artifacts
Decks (x1) - Retail (1x) $10 ($10) - No Discount Retail
Ally - Likely added to Ally pack
Spectral Horde - Likely part of next Other World
Otherworld #2 - Retail $80 - Discount Retail $50-60

____________

Total for Shogun value - Retail $574 (Without Exclusives) - Discount Retail $342.50 (Minus Exclusives, Cards and Alt genders)
Cards and Alt genders add +$104 ($446.50 at Discount retail)

Total for Sumo Value - Retail $270 (Without Exclusives) - Discount Retail - $150 (Minus Exclusives, Cards and Alt genders)
Cards and Alt Genders add +$72 ($222 at Discount retail)
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Personally I do believe Forbidden Fortress is worth it, but your mileage may vary. Some people keep coming back to the fact that other Kickstarters off more mini's, more plastic, more...more...more...

And it's true. BUT we have all been in the spot where we back a kickstarter game because it LOOKS awesome...only to find out it plays not so awesome.

We know that the Frogs put a lot of development time into their games and there is no reason to believe otherwise with Forbidden Fortress.

That being said this is a lite RPG / adventure game set in folklore Japan. If that playstyle or setting puts you off it may not be for you.

I do not like the setting AS MUCH as the original Brimstone, but I'm all in on this one becuase I do still like it.


Here is an awesome visual reference of what's included in each pledge at the 705K funding level.

Graphic was done by none other than
Klutz
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Gavin Downing
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As I noted elsewhere:

A lot of people didn't think much of some of the Otherworlds in the last Kickstarter at first (there was some uncertainty about the Derelict Ship or the Blasted Wastes, I recall, and even a few who didn't like Trederra at all). Now they're all pretty popular ideas. Some people were unsold on the Western core theme. Now everyone knows it's awesome. Why? What happened?

The Frogs happened.

Their ideas are always so creative and just dripping with theme. Every addition is jam packed with so much awesome stuff, even the card packs are exciting and well worth grabbing. There's no "half-hearted" expansion. The Frogs have proven, time and again, they bring their A game to every bit of game development they do.

So if you're thinking, "I love Brimstone, but man, Japanese myth just doesn’t do anything for me," I say, give the Frogs a chance. They'll likely hit this one out of the park. Again.
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Joanna G
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I calculated the Shogun to msrp savings is currently 58-62% (depending on how you price the exclusives - range being $25*-50 each).

Savings compared to online retailers (csi & ffp webstore) is at least 40% savings (just using the low end cost of the exclusives - $25each)

So the KS is a huge savings over post-KS options.

The Sumo level itself if worth the cost of 6 new hero classes or the base game discounted with 2 exclusive classes. ($17x4 + $25x2 = $118 or $69+$25+$25 = $119)

Either way you go, a great savings.

*I'm using $25 because that is how much additional Outlaw Heroes cost in the PM of the orig KS)
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Waggly Bean
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Honestly, at the end of the day you are getting a better deal pledging now at either level than buying all the items later at retail.

If you think you are ever going to be interested in getting FoFo, it is worth pledging now.
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Neomaxim Noefaith
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wagglybean wrote:
Honestly, at the end of the day you are getting a better deal pledging now at either level than buying all the items later at retail.

If you think you are ever going to be interested in getting FoFo, it is worth pledging now.


This is exactly right. Even things I didn't expect to add value, like card decks (exclusively sold on FFP's website) have already added immensely to my SoB experience. Even a few games in I can tell that diversity of content adds exponentially to how fun and diverse my game sessions are. As such, as someone now tracking down everything available, let me tell you... its EXPENSIVE.

Being able to go "all in" now, and get things at significantly deeper discount than even online shops, for a whole range of new content I know i'd end up wanting... makes it a deal.

And look at it this way. If you would've bought even 60% of this at online discounts later, you'd might as well get in now, get some further content you might not have anyway, oh, and a few ultra expensive heroes you wouldn't have been able to get down the road.

Comparing this KS to raw model count of some other KS like that Lovecraftian under-sea game is also a fools errand. Who is to say a first-time KS company like theirs can even attain their promises, or who is to say the game will even be worth a damn even with its neat models? There is a de-facto value in going for a proven commodity.
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Eric L
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I feel that once I finally get my mine cart from KS 1, I'll have plenty to explore. My plays of the base games alone so far have felt lacking in variety and altogether too samey.

Value aside as it isn't that critical to me, I'll wait and see what I eventually end up with from KS 1 and should I feel I want more then, I'll pursue retail. I will not feel at all sorry for holding off.
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Klutz
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ludyee wrote:
I feel that once I finally get my mine cart from KS 1, I'll have plenty to explore. My plays of the base games alone so far have felt lacking in variety and altogether too samey.

Value aside as it isn't that critical to me, I'll wait and see what I eventually end up with from KS 1 and should I feel I want more then, I'll pursue retail. I will not feel at all sorry for holding off.


I'm in the same boat.

I really think FFP should've waited for Wave 2 to ship out to backers before starting a second Kickstarter. Not just for PR reasons, I think they would've had more backers.

I'm not alone in not wanting to buy even more stuff for a game, when I'm already expecting a ton of stuff soon.
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Waggly Bean
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KevBelisle wrote:
ludyee wrote:
I feel that once I finally get my mine cart from KS 1, I'll have plenty to explore. My plays of the base games alone so far have felt lacking in variety and altogether too samey.

Value aside as it isn't that critical to me, I'll wait and see what I eventually end up with from KS 1 and should I feel I want more then, I'll pursue retail. I will not feel at all sorry for holding off.


I'm in the same boat.

I really think FFP should've waited for Wave 2 to ship out to backers before starting a second Kickstarter. Not just for PR reasons, I think they would've had more backers.

I'm not alone in not wanting to buy even more stuff for a game, when I'm already expecting a ton of stuff soon.


I originally felt like this, but then I realised that I will kick myself if I realise I want it later down the line but have to spend way more to get it all.

In my opinion, better to pledge now and sell later down the line if I change my mind. I'd probably be able to profit a little on selling it all anyway.

Having said that I imagine I will be glad I backed this one when my wave 2 stuff comes in and gets me all excited!
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Robert Haddon
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As someone who missed the original SoB KS, I can tell you with certainty that picking up all this stuff at retail hurts. I've got a ton of SoB, probably 2/3 of Minecart, for around $1000. I've not done an exact count to avoid direct confrontation with my insanity.

And now with this KS I can add another $400 or so to that sum. But I'm saving so much money, right? Ha ha ha!!! <sanity slips away...KO'd>
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George
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Honestly, I don't really need any more SOBS, especially with wave 2 coming. But the value here is just too good. There are a ton of extras and the KS Exclusives are really appealing, plus I do love the Japanese theme. Reading about the cool mechanics they added with Trederra, I'm excited to see what all they do with it. Here's a tidbit about the new classes from the KS comments today:
Quote:
“Any new, interesting, exciting game mechanics to FF you can tell us about?” – Well, Heroes all have a little more going on than the previous Core Sets. The Assassin get to choose which Clan she is from and each has a special extra ability and background flavor. The Samurai Warrior builds up Fury as he fights which is then spent to unleash Battle Tactics as sort of Power Attacks, the Sorceress has access to Elemental Magik that comes in 4 different varieties (Earth, Wind, Water, Fire), each with a unique theme and style., and the Traveling Monk is sort of a Holy Cleric and Martial Artist that uses Auras for protecting and healing the team.

Really cool possibilities. I'm also loving many of the new models, nice details... the winged Tengu, the on-fire Scourge Dead, the skeleton samurai Dishonored Dead... I could go on, but I'll just end by saying I'm really looking forward to playing the extra large Sumo hero. Variety is really what drives this game, so the more the merrier.

So I'm totally sucked in again. March 2018 is far enough away that I'm pretty sure I'll be more than ready for some more SOBS when it rolls around. If not for some reason, I can sell it for profit. Too many awesome extras not to back right now.
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Neomaxim Noefaith
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Thanks for sharing that quote George. I love seeing more complex heroes, as I always feel like new, and interesting characters (even if they aren't super strong or anything), add so much longevity to a game already infinitely replayable.

At some point I feel like I will look back on SoB and end up calling it my all-time favorite game. Between the two Kickstarters (or in my case retail and the current KS), I feel like this will end up being the most content rich dungeon crawl ever made, even eclipsing Warhammer Quest's advanced-rpg rule-book.
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I certainly can understand wanting to wait especially since Wave 2.0 hasn't shipped yet...But you have to remember that wave 2 will arrive in the next couple of months. Forbidden Fortress isn't going to arrive for 18 months or so.

I'm jumping in on the deal and I'm sure by the time it arrives I'll be eagerly anticipating the fresh new car smell.
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farhan qureshi
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I was an original SoB backer at Outlaw plus few add ons and am still awaiting my Wave 2 (did not feel excited enough for Wave 1.5) but am sitting out on this one, for now.

Adding to the arguments and posts related to monetary worth, I would like to say that if you believe you are going to be getting close to 80% of all the expansion/stretch goal packs etc, then you should consider backing now. However, if you are going to be choosy and stick to an expansion and a few add-ons, you should wait. I, for one, would shrug aside the discount offered on the SoB:FF expansions for a Sumo pledge. These will end-up being discounted to around $50 a few months after release at retail. The original SoB Trederra expansion that FFP is offering with the Kickstarter at $70 was available for $53 (discounted from $80) at CoolstuffInc before they ran out of stock.

Regardless of what they set as the retail pricing, FFP has to look at their competition and attempt to price things reasonably, which I believe they have largely failed at. Even on Kickstarter, backers ultimately will compare with other active projects, most noticeably Mythic Battles by Monolith and the value and pricing of their expansion/add-on material, not to mention their offering of SGs and exclusives.

Finally, I do not feel much into the Japanese setting and this is starting to feel a cash-grab with the SoB line diluting from its core western theme to "open the portal to pretty much any setting". While Trederra, Targa, Blasted wastes and Derelict Ship to me provide nice alternate reality settings, the Swamps, Feudal Japan and even Cynder do not appeal as much and makes you wonder, where next... Victorian England? Canyons and Hell train, yes...but even these should introduce some new mechanics to feel fresh and not just additional art and minis.
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Tragic TheBlathering
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wystan wrote:
4. I backed their first Kickstarter and don't have my stuff yet...

Look, they sent the base games to everyone when it was promised to arrive (or relatively close). They did explain that there would be a delay due to Over-Promising, and yes it is a long time. But the Value that the base games alone has more than covered the Outlaw Pledge. Mine Cart (and Outlaw backers) had the option to add shipping for wave 1.5, yes this was expensive ($150) for non-US backers ($50 for US backers). But the valuation for a mine cart backer was $1700+ retail value, even at a most expensive Mine Cart ($500) this is a 33% cost to you of retail, even adding that extra $50 or $150 you are still saving an amazing amount of money and I am sure that we all know it will arrive.


Sorry.... what?

Are you saying that there are a portion of the original backers that STILL have no received the content form the 1st kicker, as in the one years ago... and even more shocking is that you are defending that?

sorry that is crazy.. I am sure I misunderstood you, didn't i?
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Tragic TheBlathering
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Tragic,

Every Backer has received the Base games and were offered a Middle shipping wave. So yes I am defending this as they told everyone there were delays. The Backers that choose to wait pay $0 extra shipping and will receive everything in one huge shipment (trust me HUGE)... So yes. Read exactly what I said... I am a Backer and I paid for 1.5 (and would have done so no matter where I lived).

As a side note, a lot of people have used Conan and an example of a better run KS... Note that their Base Sets were very delayed and they have bad rules and no schedule for the next waves.... So everyone has their own level of acceptable wait... I think Conan was less acceptable as the Base games did not come Anywhere near when promised.

Regards,
Wystan
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wystan wrote:
So yes I am defending this as they told everyone there were delays. The Backers that choose to wait pay $0 extra shipping and will receive everything in one huge shipment (trust me HUGE)... So yes.


This thread and your comments are the most ridiculous pile of rubbish I have seen posted on this site for a long time.

I never ceases to amaze me how people will bend over backwards to justify any kind of action by accompany they feel some sort of loyalty to because they like a product.

A kicker still not being delivered coming on 4 years, absolutely sub-standard models, rule errors.. the list go on. There is NO defending it. Then they have the gaul to release a new game and a new kicker while 100s of people are still waiting for their product from years ago.

You can write posts 500 pages long trying to justify it, hell I have seen people write essays saying we haven't landed on the moon or that the holocaust didn't happen.. doesn't change the facts.

But hey, it is a free country.. believe what ever you like.. but seriously.. I am so shocked that anyone could honestly believe what you are saying.
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It's not as bad as all that. They delivered the base sets 2 years ago, and a bunch of expansions earlier this year, and a bunch more coming in the next 3-4 months. I've been part of much worse kickstarters that took even longer to deliver just a single game.
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GasPumpGirl wrote:
wystan wrote:
So yes I am defending this as they told everyone there were delays. The Backers that choose to wait pay $0 extra shipping and will receive everything in one huge shipment (trust me HUGE)... So yes.


This thread and your comments are the most ridiculous pile of rubbish I have seen posted on this site for a long time.

I never ceases to amaze me how people will bend over backwards to justify any kind of action by accompany they feel some sort of loyalty to because they like a product.

A kicker still not being delivered coming on 4 years, absolutely sub-standard models, rule errors.. the list go on. There is NO defending it. Then they have the gaul to release a new game and a new kicker while 100s of people are still waiting for their product from years ago.

You can write posts 500 pages long trying to justify it, hell I have seen people write essays saying we haven't landed on the moon or that the holocaust didn't happen.. doesn't change the facts.

But hey, it is a free country.. believe what ever you like.. but seriously.. I am so shocked that anyone could honestly believe what you are saying.


Would you like to sell me your pledge? You look very annoyed by the big delay, I know I wouldn't mind, especially since I missed the first kickstarter and I spent with shippings and everything already around 1500$ on half what you will be getting.

I'd love to buy your pledge, let me know if you are interested.
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Angelus Seniores
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maybe you dont realise it, but you answered it for yourself;

...Because they LIKE a product!

is it so difficult to understand the difference between face value and actual value, in relation to a person's interests and tastes?

what's the point of gaming if its not because you like it?!

i can understand if people just look at the part's value only, but SOB is definitely a case where 1+1>2, it has a game engine that has lots of potential and each newly released pack shows new and different ways in which the designers let it roar

in the end, each person has to make their own checks and balances to value what they get, and for me SOB definitely is worth it
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GasPumpGirl wrote:
wystan wrote:
So yes I am defending this as they told everyone there were delays. The Backers that choose to wait pay $0 extra shipping and will receive everything in one huge shipment (trust me HUGE)... So yes.


This thread and your comments are the most ridiculous pile of rubbish I have seen posted on this site for a long time.

I never ceases to amaze me how people will bend over backwards to justify any kind of action by accompany they feel some sort of loyalty to because they like a product.

A kicker still not being delivered coming on 4 years, absolutely sub-standard models, rule errors.. the list go on. There is NO defending it. Then they have the gaul to release a new game and a new kicker while 100s of people are still waiting for their product from years ago.

You can write posts 500 pages long trying to justify it, hell I have seen people write essays saying we haven't landed on the moon or that the holocaust didn't happen.. doesn't change the facts.

But hey, it is a free country.. believe what ever you like.. but seriously.. I am so shocked that anyone could honestly believe what you are saying.


I was thinking of pledging for this, but...

Nearly 4 years gone by and still not got it all? So, by that logic, I might still be waiting for this one in 2020?

Erm... well, ok... thanks for the info!
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Eric Harman
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slim17 wrote:
GasPumpGirl wrote:
wystan wrote:
So yes I am defending this as they told everyone there were delays. The Backers that choose to wait pay $0 extra shipping and will receive everything in one huge shipment (trust me HUGE)... So yes.


This thread and your comments are the most ridiculous pile of rubbish I have seen posted on this site for a long time.

I never ceases to amaze me how people will bend over backwards to justify any kind of action by accompany they feel some sort of loyalty to because they like a product.

A kicker still not being delivered coming on 4 years, absolutely sub-standard models, rule errors.. the list go on. There is NO defending it. Then they have the gaul to release a new game and a new kicker while 100s of people are still waiting for their product from years ago.

You can write posts 500 pages long trying to justify it, hell I have seen people write essays saying we haven't landed on the moon or that the holocaust didn't happen.. doesn't change the facts.

But hey, it is a free country.. believe what ever you like.. but seriously.. I am so shocked that anyone could honestly believe what you are saying.


I was thinking of pledging for this, but...

Nearly 4 years gone by and still not got it all? So, by that logic, I might still be waiting for this one in 2020?

Erm... well, ok... thanks for the info!


Unlikely. Sob was their first ks. They never imagined it would take of the way it did. Remember, this was in 2013, before kickstarter was a major way to buy games, right around the same time the first zombicide hit ks.
They got overly excited by all the interest and money, and went wild with stretch goals.

Before the campaign was even done, they knew they bit off more than they could chew in a few months. So try offered 1.5 shipping, at a discount, *during* the campaign.
Just a side note: that means anyone complaining about the long wait knew, before the campaign was over, what they were in for.

This time they've been far more conservative with addons (maybe too conservative... If the accusations of lack of value are to be believed) and also set a delivery date that is 18 months out.

They screwed up, they know it, and they fixed it with the new ks.
I suspect part of the purpose for this one is to prove to the community that they *can* keep to a timeline.
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Tragic TheBlathering
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slim17 wrote:
Nearly 4 years gone by and still not got it all? So, by that logic, I might still be waiting for this one in 2020?

Erm... well, ok... thanks for the info!


I think it is unlikely... regardless of the excuses / reasons for the model quality and the slow turn around a LOT of people got burnt and are understandably concerned about backing the new one..

BUT....

Maybe I am just a optimist, but I think that the mistakes of the old kickstarter could in some ways ensure that this one will be run a lot better.

We can all agree that the model problem has been improved, some would say solved and the kicker itself is far less ambitious, offering less and therefor more achievable. Though some would say that the kicker is pretty expensive for the amount content they are providing compared to other companies.

Either way, I honestly believe the game production will be much smoother and include a more solid delivery date.. BUT the fear is real, and I think people have valid reasons to be wary.. getting the game in 2020.. that is not acceptable imo.
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Gavin Downing
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slim17 wrote:
I was thinking of pledging for this, but...

Nearly 4 years gone by and still not got it all? So, by that logic, I might still be waiting for this one in 2020?

Erm... well, ok... thanks for the info!


First of all, three years, not four years. The Kickstarter ran in October of 2013, which was three years ago.

Second of all, here's an important difference.

The first Kickstarter went off the rails in how many stretch goals and add-ons were put into the Kickstarter. Seriously, it was like five years of game development all included in a single Kickstarter, because it kept slamming through stretch goal after stretch goal, and they even added new stretch goals based on ideas from the fans. "Wouldn't it be cool to have a giant three-headed rattlesnake enemy?" "Yes, it would. Have a stretch goal!" Before the Kickstarter was over, they were aware that they couldn't get all the promised material to the backers by the original intended end-date. Not everyone was fully aware of this, because while it was announced, not everyone noticed it. Still, the sheer volume of material that still needed to be developed should have been a clue.

Instead, the Frogs broke things into two waves of shipping. Then, when backers requested more shipping waves, they added an extra optional wave. The first wave of shipping went out within a month or so of the original promised date. That included the two core sets that were originally being pledged for, and the rules for the Outlaw class. (The miniature was delayed, so rather than push back all delivery for a single miniature, they added it to the next shipping wave.)

Wave 1.5 was an optional wave, paid for by any backers who wished to take part, sent out early this year. It had a huge volume of the promised material. Not everyone wanted to pay the shipping wave, and it wasn't something they could arrange EU-friendly shipping for, so that did mean most of the folks who got it were American backers. This did annoy some EU backers, and that's reasonable. I also don't see any reasonable alternative for FFP.

Wave 2 is finishing manufacturing now, and is scheduled to start shipping in December or January (entirely at their own cost). This is seriously like 5 years of game product, all produced in three years. And overall it's seriously quality work. If they had just slap-dashed some quick rules together, they could have met all their promises much faster, but the game would have suffered. Instead, they made a game that's seriously high-quality, that will be on my gaming table for years, if not decades, to come.

The new Kickstarter has learned from all these mistakes. They are limiting their stretch goals, and it's a much smaller Kickstarter as a result. But it's also got a tremendous value. And if they say they believe they can deliver on all these products, including the stretch goals, by March 2018? I have no reason to doubt them. The people who say "They don't deliver on their promises" are simply not paying close attention and assume promises never made. Every time I've dealt with the Frogs, they've been honest, and delivered excellent product.
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Eric Harman
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Ontario
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gavindowning wrote:
slim17 wrote:
I was thinking of pledging for this, but...

Nearly 4 years gone by and still not got it all? So, by that logic, I might still be waiting for this one in 2020?

Erm... well, ok... thanks for the info!


First of all, three years, not four years. The Kickstarter ran in October of 2013, which was three years ago.

Second of all, here's an important difference.

The first Kickstarter went off the rails in how many stretch goals and add-ons were put into the Kickstarter. Seriously, it was like five years of game development all included in a single Kickstarter, because it kept slamming through stretch goal after stretch goal, and they even added new stretch goals based on ideas from the fans. "Wouldn't it be cool to have a giant three-headed rattlesnake enemy?" "Yes, it would. Have a stretch goal!" Before the Kickstarter was over, they were aware that they couldn't get all the promised material to the backers by the original intended end-date. Not everyone was fully aware of this, because while it was announced, not everyone noticed it. Still, the sheer volume of material that still needed to be developed should have been a clue.

Instead, the Frogs broke things into two waves of shipping. Then, when backers requested more shipping waves, they added an extra optional wave. The first wave of shipping went out within a month or so of the original promised date. That included the two core sets that were originally being pledged for, and the rules for the Outlaw class. (The miniature was delayed, so rather than push back all delivery for a single miniature, they added it to the next shipping wave.)

Wave 1.5 was an optional wave, paid for by any backers who wished to take part, sent out early this year. It had a huge volume of the promised material. Not everyone wanted to pay the shipping wave, and it wasn't something they could arrange EU-friendly shipping for, so that did mean most of the folks who got it were American backers. This did annoy some EU backers, and that's reasonable. I also don't see any reasonable alternative for FFP.

Wave 2 is finishing manufacturing now, and is scheduled to start shipping in December or January (entirely at their own cost). This is seriously like 5 years of game product, all produced in three years. And overall it's seriously quality work. If they had just slap-dashed some quick rules together, they could have met all their promises much faster, but the game would have suffered. Instead, they made a game that's seriously high-quality, that will be on my gaming table for years, if not decades, to come.

The new Kickstarter has learned from all these mistakes. They are limiting their stretch goals, and it's a much smaller Kickstarter as a result. But it's also got a tremendous value. And if they say they believe they can deliver on all these products, including the stretch goals, by March 2018? I have no reason to doubt them. The people who say "They don't deliver on their promises" are simply not paying close attention and assume promises never made. Every time I've dealt with the Frogs, they've been honest, and delivered excellent product.


Another issue they fixed: all shipping for this ks is EU, UK, CAN, and AUS friendly this time (out of ffp's pocket)

This first ks was a clusterf. But they learned.

So we, as consumers, can be offended, or we can say "eh, shit happens, they learned" and get over it.

Regardless, *when* this ks goes well, I hope those who have decided to by grumpy about the whole thing can be open minded enough to see that they improved.
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