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Subject: THE BATHHOUSE - let's get an answer once and for all rss

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Mark Tietsort
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Hi All,

I have also sent a direct email to Reiner Stockhausen on the Bathhouse. Orleans is an amazing game, and it seems this bathhouse although somewhat clear in the rule book, there is still so many floating questions on it's function, timing, and the faded Farmer on the tile.

I have my thoughts on how the ability should function, and my own interpretation of the Bathhouse. I intentionally did not add my "Opinion" to this, because I really want to stop the many interpretations, and allow us all to get a clear understanding on how this tile functions in the game.

Below are the presented questions. If someone has received this information from the publisher or from Reiner Stockhausen, please add any insight.

Looking at the new version of the Bathhouse a few questions.

1. - Why is the Farmer Faded on the Bathhouse tile, do you still need to place a farmer on this tile to activate the effect?

2. Do you perform this as an action in Phase 5, thus removing the farmer as an action, then drawing 2 workers from you bag selecting one then returning the other and the farmer used to activate the Bathhouse back to your bag?

3. If the answer to Question 2 is to activate it during phase 5, then does the selected worker tile go to you allotted workhouse spaces, or directly to an action space on your board?

or

1. Does the Bathhouse activate during phase 3, as long as you have placed a farmer tile on the bathhouse from a previous turn? Or perhaps you pull your allotted workers based on your knight status, then while placing worker tiles in Phase 4 on action spaces, as long as you place a farmer you get to perform the ability of the Bathhouse?

There is a belief on BGG, that once you own the bathhouse, just every turn you in phase 3, (without ever placing a farmer on the Bathhouse), you get an additional draw of 2 worker tiles, and get to keep an extra Worker tile? Which draws an additional question of: Does the acquired worker tile go to your Workhouse spaces if available, or directly to an action space?

So in Summary:

- Why is the Farmer faded on the Bathhouse tile?
- What phase is the Bathhouse ability used?
- Do you have to place a farmer on the Bathhouse, and remove the farmer to activate it? (and if so when?)

I think we all would really appreciate the final ruling from Reiner - the designer, to stop the constant questioning on the Bathhouse.

 
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Peter Mulholland
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I don't see how its a problem its perfectly clear?

Rules

During Phase 3 (when drawing your allotted amount of followers) if you have the bathhouse tile you 2 additional followers (on top of your allowance from the Knight track). You choose one to return to the bag, and one to keep. The follower you keep goes into your market - thus you must have a space in your market (if you are at the top of the knight track and drawing 8, you will not have space for the extra 2, unless you have the Gunpowder Tower).

The above is the rules update. If you wish to play with the original rules they are as follows:

Original Rules

During Phase 4 (Planning) you may place a farmer on here. During Phase 5 (Actions) you may activate this tile by removing the farmer. Place the farmer aside and draw three new followers from your bag. Choose one and return it (and the farmer used to activate the tile) to your bag. The followers you keep are placed on any available action spaces following normal placement rules (except the Bathhouse - so you can't chain it). If this activates a space you may use it later in the round. If you cannot place one or both of the followers return them to your bag.




I don't see where the confusion is to be honest. It's pretty black and white. The reason the farmer is faded is because the tile can be played with either set of rules. If it didn't have the farmer people would get confused about the original rules.


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Mark Tietsort
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Yes it seems very clear to me, I think the big problem was and is people are combining these rules together, and thus creating confusion...

Thanks
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Max
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It comes from the official variant by DLP, by which you only take two tiles, discard one, and can use it wherever you want to, hopefully, activate an action place.
 
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Peter Mulholland
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Tiets wrote:
Yes it seems very clear to me, I think the big problem was and is people are combining these rules together, and thus creating confusion...

Thanks


You're welcome. Just the RAW. I'm not sure why people would start combing them, pretty clear it's two different options.
 
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Peter Mulholland
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mazmaz wrote:
It comes from the official variant by DLP, by which you only take two tiles, discard one, and can use it wherever you want to, hopefully, activate an action place.


So that's the same as the "original rule" I posted above, except drawing 2 instead of 3. I have the DLP version with the take 2 keep 1 rule and tile, and I imagine I'll carry on playing that way. Still it's clear it's delegate rules so no reason for people to mix/combine them. Anyways it's what I've paired up there. You do one or the other, simple : )


Not hijacking this thread, just curious as I had no idea there had been a change: have TMG or anyone said why the rule was changed?
 
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Darren
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PeterM2158 wrote:
I don't see how its a problem its perfectly clear?

Rules

During Phase 3 (when drawing your allotted amount of followers) if you have the bathhouse tile you 2 additional followers (on top of your allowance from the Knight track). You choose one to return to the bag, and one to keep. The follower you keep goes into your market - thus you must have a space in your market (if you are at the top of the knight track and drawing 8, you will not have space for the extra 2, unless you have the Gunpowder Tower).

...

Quick question regarding the exact wording...

It says during Phase 3 (which is when tiles are drawn from the bag), draw 2 extra tiles and then return one tile you have drawn this turn to the bag. This is vague as it could mean you pick one out of all the tiles you drew (including the two extra) and return it, or it could mean return one of the two extras you drew to the bag. This could be clearer.

Since the top rules don't mention anything about activating, I assume the tile is active all the time and does not need a farmer - hence the shaded out farmer.
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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The original rule:


This was deemed overpowered by most players. In the mean time, TMG contracted with DLP to release a deluxe version in the U.S.

TMG changed the rule to:


Around the same time as the TMG release, DLP printed a new edition. They also changed the rule, and used the following change:

This is the same idea as the original rule, but the quantities are changed.



The confusion arises because people don't realize that there are three versions, and they seem to mix the rules together.

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Rob Singleton
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Kaiyoot wrote:
Quick question regarding the exact wording...

It says during Phase 3 (which is when tiles are drawn from the bag), draw 2 extra tiles and then return one tile you have drawn this turn to the bag. This is vague as it could mean you pick one out of all the tiles you drew (including the two extra) and return it, or it could mean return one of the two extras you drew to the bag. This could be clearer.


So, which one is it?
 
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Peter Mulholland
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Kaiyoot wrote:
PeterM2158 wrote:
I don't see how its a problem its perfectly clear?

Rules

During Phase 3 (when drawing your allotted amount of followers) if you have the bathhouse tile you 2 additional followers (on top of your allowance from the Knight track). You choose one to return to the bag, and one to keep. The follower you keep goes into your market - thus you must have a space in your market (if you are at the top of the knight track and drawing 8, you will not have space for the extra 2, unless you have the Gunpowder Tower).

...

Quick question regarding the exact wording...

It says during Phase 3 (which is when tiles are drawn from the bag), draw 2 extra tiles and then return one tile you have drawn this turn to the bag. This is vague as it could mean you pick one out of all the tiles you drew (including the two extra) and return it, or it could mean return one of the two extras you drew to the bag. This could be clearer.

Since the top rules don't mention anything about activating, I assume the tile is active all the time and does not need a farmer - hence the shaded out farmer.


You're over thinking it. You draw two extra tiles, and put one of those two back. It couldn't be any clearer. That even matches the illustration.

Yes the "new" rule means it's active all the time. The farmer is on there but faded so there is a space to put a farmer if you chose to play the original rule.
 
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Peter Mulholland
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singler3360 wrote:
Kaiyoot wrote:
Quick question regarding the exact wording...

It says during Phase 3 (which is when tiles are drawn from the bag), draw 2 extra tiles and then return one tile you have drawn this turn to the bag. This is vague as it could mean you pick one out of all the tiles you drew (including the two extra) and return it, or it could mean return one of the two extras you drew to the bag. This could be clearer.


So, which one is it?


Draw 2 extra tiles. Of those two extra tiles keep one and return one. Simple.
 
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Peter Mulholland
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mfaulk80 wrote:
The original rule:


This was deemed overpowered by most players. In the mean time, TMG contracted with DLP to release a deluxe version in the U.S.

TMG changed the rule to:


Around the same time as the TMG release, DLP printed a new edition. They also changed the rule, and used the following change:

This is the same idea as the original rule, but the quantities are changed.



The confusion arises because people don't realize that there are three versions, and they seem to mix the rules together.



Fair enough. I have the DLP version with farmer activation draw 2 keep 1, didn't even know there had been a rules change. It's pretty obvious to me that they are distinctly different rules - I mean it literally says that but ok.

Hopefully it will make it clearly though.

New rule is tile is always active, during phase 3 draw 2 extra followers and keep one as long as you have space.

Old rule is farmer to activate in phase 6, draw 2 keep 1.

Really old rule is now disregarded. Simple : )
 
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Benjamin Kerenza
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PeterM2158 wrote:

New rule is tile is always active, during phase 3 draw 2 extra followers and keep one as long as you have space.

Old rule is farmer to activate in phase 6, draw 2 keep 1.

Really old rule is now disregarded. Simple : )


I'm not sure it's that simple and part of the confusion is the two rules you mentioned there are both new rules, one by TMG and one by Stockhausen.

The old rule is farmer activated phase 6 draw three use two.

The latest rule as far as I'm aware is Stockhausen activate, draw 2 use 1 as if he'd decided this before the deluxe edition the TMG version would surely have used this or at least given it as the alternative.

I prefer the TMG version as it's simpler but I think it's open to be played however the group at the table want to play it. I think Reiner Stockhausen has basically said before, it's your game play how you want. The original fix for bathhouse was to just not play with it. Similarly the limits on money has gone back and forth and has never really had much of an official definite.
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Peter Mulholland
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bjwells wrote:
PeterM2158 wrote:

New rule is tile is always active, during phase 3 draw 2 extra followers and keep one as long as you have space.

Old rule is farmer to activate in phase 6, draw 2 keep 1.

Really old rule is now disregarded. Simple : )


I'm not sure it's that simple and part of the confusion is the two rules you mentioned there are both new rules, one by TMG and one by Stockhausen.

The old rule is farmer activated phase 6 draw three use two.

The latest rule as far as I'm aware is Stockhausen activate, draw 2 use 1 as if he'd decided this before the deluxe edition the TMG version would surely have used this or at least given it as the alternative.

I prefer the TMG version as it's simpler but I think it's open to be played however the group at the table want to play it. I think Reiner Stockhausen has basically said before, it's your game play how you want. The original fix for bathhouse was to just not play with it. Similarly the limits on money has gone back and forth and has never really had much of an official definite.


I think it is that simple. DLP rulebook has one rule, TMG rulebook now has both. You choose which one to use and play it RAW. Simple.

But I agree people should just play how they want, same as every other game (I will continue to play activate with farmer, draw 2 keep 1). But for those people who like to play exactly as the designer intended I really can't see how it's confusing at all, if you treat them as separate rules and don't start mixing them (and why would you do this anyway?)
 
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giovanni ciampi
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Kaiyoot wrote:

It says during Phase 3 (which is when tiles are drawn from the bag), draw 2 extra tiles and then return one tile you have drawn this turn to the bag. This is vague as it could mean you pick one out of all the tiles you drew (including the two extra) and return it, or it could mean return one of the two extras you drew to the bag. This could be clearer.

Since the top rules don't mention anything about activating, I assume the tile is active all the time and does not need a farmer - hence the shaded out farmer.


Well, strictly, the rule allow you to select the token to discard in the whole lot of tokens you drawn during the turn. This is quite clear: "...return one tile you have drawn this turn...". It does not say "one tile of those two" or anything that can be understood like that.

The fact that the illustration suggest otherwise (select one token of the two you drawn with the Batthouse) it's due to the reuse of the same illustration of the original Bathhouse, minus one token.

Problem is, it's quite clear that to select one token to discard in all the tokens you drawn is way stronger than select one a in specific drawn of two (the best possible case, ideally, would be to draw two monks, which you can keep both while discarding something else). That's why some players are convinced that the TMG Bathhouse is still overpowered and that the DLP fix is to be considered the definitive one.

It's true, however, that the DLP Bathhouse, even the fixed one, still allow you to take the same action twice (which the TMG one does not), but only for single tile (or geared two tiles) ones. But it's situational, and you still have to activate it.

What you think about that? It's the TMG Bathhouse still overpowered?

All in all, i'll say that, while the TMG fix is stronger, the DLP one is more interesting as it still allow the symmetry of the game to be occasionally broken. If i want to use one of the goods producing tiles, i already know that i can use each one of them only once per turn, and therefore i already know how much points i can get in the best case. The DLP Bathhouse throws a span in this math.




 
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Mathue Faulkner
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Having played with both fixes, I prefer the DLP fix. It just felt like the right balance to keep the time interesting but not too strong.
 
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Todd Greer
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With the DLP fix, is the extra follower chosen and played before or after the normal set of followers are drawn?
 
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