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Jack Bennett
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1. Say your pool limit is 6 discs and you have 5. You gain 2. Do you have to take 1 of them and discard the other? Or since that's a set of 2 that you cannot take (fully), can you take 1 of a different color?

2. For the biosynthesis that happens during manna death during the autocatalytic roll: if you would gain 2 of the same color catalyst and you're already maxed in that color in your pool, can you gain 1 of a different color? Or does manna death happen one at a time, so it wouldn't be considered a "full 2 you cannot take"?

3. To be the Wanton first player it says you have to have more wantonness than "any other player." Does this mean "any one other player" (not last or tied for last) or "each and every other player" (first and not tied for first)?

4. Do the suns on the Tropical Waterworld act only as a reminder of the new Armegeddon threshold? Or do they also mean that we are now warming? Asked another way: if we drew a snowflake last turn and then the Waterworld this turn, are we warming or cooling? (It's not placed in the pile, so you can't use it to keep track if it does change the climate.)

5. How would the Erstaz Progenote rule come into play? The rule for creation of life says if you rolled doubles "and your biont remains on the Refugium after applying the results." In the Ersatz rule all your bionts died, so you couldn't chose to create life, right?

6. Additional Erstaz question: if you are still allowed to create life even with none of your own bionts on it (but with someone else's on there), the rule says you "must" do so. Is that correct? The rules point out that choosing to create life is optional, so it struck me as odd that in this one particular instance it says "he must pick one of them to claim the Bacteria."

7. The specifity re-rolls do say that you MAY choose to reroll, but don't say "up to" anywhere. Is it all or nothing? Asked another way: you have 3 yellow chromosomes, can you reroll only 0 or 3 dice, or may you reroll 0, 1, 2, or 3 dice?

8. The pollution attack rules say "the attack extremity is equal to the number of the polluter's green Chromosomes (Entropy)." But my understanding is the Entropy is "greenest +1" which isn't going to be the same as the number of green Chromosomes on the polluter. Which is correct?

9. Another pollution attack: could someone explain the example at the bottom of page 19? The new replacing parasite would have both the blue and red diseased cubes from the upgraded Hox Genes. Then it would make a extremity 1 oxygen attack (extremity equal to the number of the polluter's green chromosomes, in this case 1 for the its green biont). The host would have one atrophy. It could lose either it's red or blue diseased cubes, right? But why would it lose the mutation?
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These are my interpretations of the rules

1. No you have to be unable to take both. You will take 1 and discard the other.

2. The "get 1 of any color for ever 2 you can not" only applies to the Darwinian roll. I was wrong, see Phil's answer below!

3. First and not tied for first.

4. They only act as a reminder, this does not affect or change the climate.

5 & 6. The wording in the live rules have changed to state the newly selected player may claim the refugia as a bacteria

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7. You may re-reroll a number of dice equal to the number of your yellow chromosomes. So with 2 yellow chromosomes you may roll 0, 1, or 2 dice. If your initial roll was with 3 dice then you could reroll at max 2 of them.

8. It's the number of Green chromosomes of the polluter only.

9. I think this is just a mistake.
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Dom Rougier
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pusherman42 wrote:


5. How would the Erstaz Progenote rule come into play? The rule for creation of life says if you rolled doubles "and your biont remains on the Refugium after applying the results." In the Ersatz rule all your bionts died, so you couldn't chose to create life, right?

6. Additional Erstaz question: if you are still allowed to create life even with none of your own bionts on it (but with someone else's on there), the rule says you "must" do so. Is that correct? The rules point out that choosing to create life is optional, so it struck me as odd that in this one particular instance it says "he must pick one of them to claim the Bacteria."


All organisms must have at least one biont, but they can end up with more than one.

If you (red) had an extant microorganism with a red biont and a foreign blue biont, and your red biont was atrophied/HGT'd away/whatever, and the blue biont is still alive, then the whole organism is moved to the blue players tableau (they take over "control").

Same applies here - if Red and Blue were contesting a Refugia, and Red was dominant since there were more red catalysts/cubes, then it's possible that Red could form life, and take his biont as a loss at the same time, leaving only blue's biont in place. ("Why?" Is a good question, presumably there's some case where it might make sense).

Since all organisms require at least one biont, and the only biont is blue, this organism goes to blue's tableau.


I think I agree with all of the other answers above
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Also just for clarification the wording on the ersatz progenote has changed to

Quote:
Ersatz Progenote. If the progenote rolls doubles, and choses to kill off all his own Bionts, but leaves Bionts of other players alive, he must pick one of them who is allowed to claim the Bacteria.
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Franz Derphausen
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pusherman42 wrote:
8. The pollution attack rules say "the attack extremity is equal to the number of the polluter's green Chromosomes (Entropy)." But my understanding is the Entropy is "greenest +1" which isn't going to be the same as the number of green Chromosomes on the polluter. Which is correct?


Green Entropy chromosomes = O2 spike severity

Green Entropy chromosomes + 1 = number of your bionts that you can assign together to the same refugium.

Greenness rating = number of Entropy chromosomes on your organism with the most Entropy Chromosomes

pusherman42 wrote:
9. Another pollution attack: could someone explain the example at the bottom of page 19? The new replacing parasite would have both the blue and red diseased cubes from the upgraded Hox Genes. Then it would make a extremity 1 oxygen attack (extremity equal to the number of the polluter's green chromosomes, in this case 1 for the its green biont). The host would have one atrophy. It could lose either it's red or blue diseased cubes, right? But why would it lose the mutation?


The Atrophy glossary entry gives you the specific sequence of which cubes/domes die off first.

Mutation cubes must be lost first

Red's bacterium is missing both mutation cubes when the spike happens - both are on the cyanobacteria as diseased cubes - and therefore the mutation is lost, it takes 1 damage which cannot be absorbed by cubes so to speak. Same thing would happen in case the cyanobacteria would lose both diseased cubes to atrophy.

EDIT: actually, the whole Atrophy glossary entry is relevant
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Derphausen wrote:

Red's bacterium is missing both mutation cubes when the spike happens - both are on the cyanobacteria as diseased cubes - and therefore the mutation is lost, it takes 1 damage which cannot be absorbed by cubes so to speak. Same thing would happen in case the cyanobacteria would lose both diseased cubes to atrophy.


I find this confusing and not covered in the rules anywhere. It doesn't say what should happen if no cubes are available. If we were to follow the rules the 1 point of damage would take out red's biont, killing both the host and the parasite.
 
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Franz Derphausen
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halogen64 wrote:
I find this confusing and not covered in the rules anywhere. It doesn't say what should happen if no cubes are available. If we were to follow the rules the 1 point of damage would take out red's biont, killing both the host and the parasite.


I couldn't find anything in the rules specifically covering Atrophy damage to cubeless mutations, however - and maybe I am totally wrong -, but reading through the Atrophy glossary entry, D7, and E3, I think no organism can go extinct as long as it has mutations - with or without cubes on them. As long as an organism has a mutation card attached to it, this means that there are cubes someplace else that originally belonged to that organism. As long as those cubes are "alive" the mutation persists. In order to kill something in this game, you first have to strip it of all its mutations, then inherent chromosomes, then the biont that keeps it alive (HGT suicide aside, that's special).
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Jack Bennett
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Thanks for the discussion, all.

halogen64 wrote:
Also just for clarification the wording on the ersatz progenote has changed to

Quote:
Ersatz Progenote. If the progenote rolls doubles, and choses to kill off all his own Bionts, but leaves Bionts of other players alive, he must pick one of them who is allowed to claim the Bacteria.


That makes that clearer. Since they're the boss, they pick someone else to be in control after their last biont dies, that person can decide to create life or not.

Derphausen wrote:
pusherman42 wrote:
8. The pollution attack rules say "the attack extremity is equal to the number of the polluter's green Chromosomes (Entropy)." But my understanding is the Entropy is "greenest +1" which isn't going to be the same as the number of green Chromosomes on the polluter. Which is correct?


Green Entropy chromosomes = O2 spike severity

Green Entropy chromosomes + 1 = number of your bionts that you can assign together to the same refugium.

Greenness rating = number of Entropy chromosomes on your organism with the most Entropy Chromosomes


Ah, I see the confusion. Entropy means both GREEN CUBES but is also used as GREENESS +1 (your Entropy limit). So in this case "Entropy" in parenthesis is just saying "your green cubes".

Quote:
pusherman42 wrote:
9. Another pollution attack: could someone explain the example at the bottom of page 19? The new replacing parasite would have both the blue and red diseased cubes from the upgraded Hox Genes. Then it would make a extremity 1 oxygen attack (extremity equal to the number of the polluter's green chromosomes, in this case 1 for the its green biont). The host would have one atrophy. It could lose either it's red or blue diseased cubes, right? But why would it lose the mutation?


The Atrophy glossary entry gives you the specific sequence of which cubes/domes die off first.

Mutation cubes must be lost first

Red's bacterium is missing both mutation cubes when the spike happens - both are on the cyanobacteria as diseased cubes - and therefore the mutation is lost, it takes 1 damage which cannot be absorbed by cubes so to speak. Same thing would happen in case the cyanobacteria would lose both diseased cubes to atrophy.

EDIT: actually, the whole Atrophy glossary entry is relevant


The Glossary says:

"Mutation cubes must be lost first, then other cubes (Chromosomes, Diseased cubes, and Organs), then Bionts (Chromosomes, Foreign Genes, or Endosymbionts), and finally Trophic Bionts." [Bolding mine]

Disease cubes are listed in there. So, right, it has no mutation cubes, so it can't lose those. Next on the list is "other cubes". It has two diseased cubes, so it can lose one of those.

My understanding would be it would lose the upgraded cube (which is currently on the parasite) and would have to demote its mutation. But it wouldn't lose the mutation.

If it took two atrophy it would lose both of its diseased cubes and then lose the mutation. If it took 3 it would have nothing left to lose but its biont, and would go extinct.
 
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Rich James
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Organisms cannot atrophy disease cubes in parasites that are attached to them. A player can only atrophy chromosomes that are physically on their organism or its mutation cards. So a parasite owner can atrophy disease cubes, but its host cannot.
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That's all good, I just don't see that in the rules anywhere. On the living rules there's a question on it too. Looks like Phil is "considering it."

And if that IS the case, then in the example it would have to lose its only biont and it would go extinct, instead of just losing its mutation. So either way it's not correct.
 
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pusherman42 wrote:
1. Say your pool limit is 6 discs and you have 5. You gain 2. Do you have to take 1 of them and discard the other? Or since that's a set of 2 that you cannot take (fully), can you take 1 of a different color?


Agreed with Halogen (No you have to be unable to take both. You will take 1 and discard the other.)

pusherman42 wrote:
2. For the biosynthesis that happens during manna death during the autocatalytic roll: if you would gain 2 of the same color catalyst and you're already maxed in that color in your pool, can you gain 1 of a different color? Or does manna death happen one at a time, so it wouldn't be considered a "full 2 you cannot take"?


Yes, you can gain 2 of another color. Under "biosynthesis" in the glossary, it states that biosynthesis can occur during autocatalytic rolls, Darwin rolls, or compensation. It also states (for all of these cases): For every full two Biosynthesis Catalysts you cannot take because of the pool limit, you can substitute one Catalyst of any other color that does not exceed the limit.

pusherman42 wrote:
3. To be the Wanton first player it says you have to have more wantonness than "any other player." Does this mean "any one other player" (not last or tied for last) or "each and every other player" (first and not tied for first)?


Agreed with Halogen. "Any" means each player regarded individually.

pusherman42 wrote:
4. Do the suns on the Tropical Waterworld act only as a reminder of the new Armegeddon threshold? Or do they also mean that we are now warming? Asked another way: if we drew a snowflake last turn and then the Waterworld this turn, are we warming or cooling? (It's not placed in the pile, so you can't use it to keep track if it does change the climate.)


Agreed with Halogen. (They only act as a reminder, this does not affect or change the climate.)

pusherman42 wrote:
5. How would the Erstaz Progenote rule come into play? The rule for creation of life says if you rolled doubles "and your biont remains on the Refugium after applying the results." In the Ersatz rule all your bionts died, so you couldn't chose to create life, right?


See #6.

pusherman42 wrote:
6. Additional Erstaz question: if you are still allowed to create life even with none of your own bionts on it (but with someone else's on there), the rule says you "must" do so. Is that correct? The rules point out that choosing to create life is optional, so it struck me as odd that in this one particular instance it says "he must pick one of them to claim the Bacteria."


Agreed with Dom and Halogen: All organisms must have at least one biont, but they can end up with more than one. If you (red) had an extant microorganism with a red biont and a foreign blue biont, and your red biont was atrophied/HGT'd away/whatever, and the blue biont is still alive, then the whole organism is moved to the blue players tableau (they take over "control").


pusherman42 wrote:
7. The specifity re-rolls do say that you MAY choose to reroll, but don't say "up to" anywhere. Is it all or nothing? Asked another way: you have 3 yellow chromosomes, can you reroll only 0 or 3 dice, or may you reroll 0, 1, 2, or 3 dice?


Agreed with Halogen (You may re-reroll a number of dice equal to the number of your yellow chromosomes. So with 2 yellow chromosomes you may roll 0, 1, or 2 dice. If your initial roll was with 3 dice then you could reroll at max 2 of them.)

pusherman42 wrote:
8. The pollution attack rules say "the attack extremity is equal to the number of the polluter's green Chromosomes (Entropy)." But my understanding is the Entropy is "greenest +1" which isn't going to be the same as the number of green Chromosomes on the polluter. Which is correct?


Agreed with Halogen & Franz. (It's the number of Green chromosomes of the polluter only.)

pusherman42 wrote:
9. Another pollution attack: could someone explain the example at the bottom of page 19? The new replacing parasite would have both the blue and red diseased cubes from the upgraded Hox Genes. Then it would make a extremity 1 oxygen attack (extremity equal to the number of the polluter's green chromosomes, in this case 1 for the its green biont). The host would have one atrophy. It could lose either it's red or blue diseased cubes, right? But why would it lose the mutation?


This is a mistake, I have changed the living rules (E4 example) to read: "Since the Host has no mutation cubes to lose, Player Red must choose two chromosomes from its Bacteria card to discard. It chooses to lose its only biont, killing both the bacterium and its parasite. "

Rich James correctly states the rule's intent. I have changed the Atrophy glossary section to clarify this: "Atrophy. Loss of a Chromosome (either cube or Biont) from an Organism, caused by some events or Error Catastrophe. Mutation cubes must be lost first, then Chromosome and Organ cubes, then Bionts (Chromosomes, Foreign Genes, or Endosymbionts), and finally Trophic Bionts. ..."

So if an organism suffers an atrophy but only has cubeless mutations, it must suffer losses from its chromosomes on its bacteria card, or organs on its macro card.


I appreciate the discussions here. Let me know if I have made any errors or if the rules can be written better.
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Jack Bennett
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Great! Thanks Halogen, Franz, Rich, and Phil for all the help. One thing though:

phileklund wrote:
pusherman42 wrote:
6. Additional Erstaz question: if you are still allowed to create life even with none of your own bionts on it (but with someone else's on there), the rule says you "must" do so. Is that correct? The rules point out that choosing to create life is optional, so it struck me as odd that in this one particular instance it says "he must pick one of them to claim the Bacteria."


Agreed with Dom and Halogen: All organisms must have at least one biont, but they can end up with more than one. If you (red) had an extant microorganism with a red biont and a foreign blue biont, and your red biont was atrophied/HGT'd away/whatever, and the blue biont is still alive, then the whole organism is moved to the blue players tableau (they take over "control").


This sounds like discussing comandeering more than the creation of life and the Ersatz rule.

If Red and Blue both have a biont on a Refugium, and you are the progenote, and you roll doubles, and you also kill your own red biont in the roll, does Blue then take over the decisions and decide to create life or not? Or do you still decide, but then Blue gets it?

What if it's Red, Blue, and Green and the same thing happens? Do you pick who takes over and decides to create life or not? Or does the next person in the Manna row take over and make that decision?
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Phil Eklund
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pusherman42 wrote:


This sounds like discussing comandeering more than the creation of life and the Ersatz rule.

If Red and Blue both have a biont on a Refugium, and you are the progenote, and you roll doubles, and you also kill your own red biont in the roll, does Blue then take over the decisions and decide to create life or not? Or do you still decide, but then Blue gets it?

What if it's Red, Blue, and Green and the same thing happens? Do you pick who takes over and decides to create life or not? Or does the next person in the Manna row take over and make that decision?


The Ersatz Progenote rule is (in living rules):
• Ersatz Progenote. If the progenote rolls doubles, and choses to kill off all his own Bionts, but leaves Bionts of other players alive, he must pick one of them who is allowed to claim the Bacteria.

Therefore, If Player Red is the Progenote and kills off his only biont, he must choose either Player Blue or Player Green (in your example) to be the Ersatz, who may make the decision to create life or not.
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Jack Bennett
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Bingo.

That answers all my questions, you all have been great.

Thanks for everyone's time!
 
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Rich James reminds me that "Macro Biosynthesis" is a special type of biosynthesis, which awards just one catalyst regardless of how many red organs or chromosomes you have in your macroorganism. I have added a bullet to the glossary entry of "Biosynthesis" as a reminder of this special case.

Biosynthesis (B4, F2, G2). Generation of Catalysts from the soup to the pool of the tableau you reside in. This can be from an Autocatalytic Roll (F2), a Darwin Roll (either protein dice or triples, see G2), or in compensation (B4) for a Biont lost by Manna death, Atrophy, or Extinction. The number of Catalysts you can have unassigned for each color is limited per (B3). For every full two Biosynthesis Catalysts you cannot take because of the pool limit, you can substitute one Catalyst of any other color that does not exceed the limit.
• Macroorganisms have a special biosynthesis. For every ‘1’ rolled during a cancer roll (D8), you generate one Catalyst of the color of your choice, added to your tableau pool.
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