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Subject: advantage rss

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Antonio Caciolli
Italy
Padua
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I do not understand the difference between advantage and standard rules in case of rolling modifier cards are drawn (case b and c in the rulebook at page 20)
 
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Erik Burigo
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Belluno
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When you have advantage you draw two modifier cards. And then...

a) Both cards are non-rolling modifiers.
You apply only the better of the two.

b) One is a non-rolling modifier and the other is a rolling modifier.
You apply them both.

c) Both cards are rolling modifiers.
You keep drawing cards until you get a non-rolling modifier. Then, you apply all the cards you've drawn together*.

Please note that, if the first card of the deck is a rolling modifier, then there's no difference between having advantage and not having advantage.

* Which, tangentially, it's a very amusing, politically incorrect show: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawn_Together.
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Skire Kreshnar
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Example B is basic advantage: drawing 2 cards and choosing the best.
Example C is what you do when advantage gives you 2 rolling modifiers: you keep drawing cards until you draw a non-rolling modifier, and then add all the cards together.

Not sure if I've worded it any better but I hope this helped.

EDIT: Ninja'd by someone who worded it much better ><
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Alex Almond
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Antonio8080 wrote:
I do not understand the difference between advantage and standard rules in case of rolling modifier cards are drawn (case b and c in the rulebook at page 20)


If the first card you draw is a rolling modifier there is no difference.

If it's the second card you drew the difference is that you got to draw a second card.

Advantage when you've got a few rolling modifiers becomes more risky so build your deck to suit.
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Giulio
Italy
Scandiano
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Painkeeper wrote:

Please note that, if the first card of the deck is a rolling modifier, then there's no difference between having advantage and not having advantage.


I didn't realize it!
 
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Erik Burigo
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g1ul10 wrote:
Painkeeper wrote:

Please note that, if the first card of the deck is a rolling modifier, then there's no difference between having advantage and not having advantage.


I didn't realize it!


It was a bit of a downer, to me. But nevertheless I assume it has been put there in order to avoid cheesy exploitation of the advantage mechanic.
 
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Rick Star
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So if you have advantage and pull a rolling card and the null card, you still stick with no damage?

Also for a null result, would the damage effects still take place? Aka no damage but would push, or poison?

I too was also confused by the example given.
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Giulio
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Painkeeper wrote:

It was a bit of a downer, to me. But nevertheless I assume it has been put there in order to avoid cheesy exploitation of the advantage mechanic.


Yeah. Why not just say: draw two, chose one and stick with it?
 
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Dennis Schwarz
Germany
Siegen
NRW
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maybe on the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one....
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rgstarzinski wrote:
So if you have advantage and pull a rolling card and the null card, you still stick with no damage?

If this was the case, I will certainly house rule it to "choose one and, if you chose a rolling modifier card, continue drawing for it".

I like the idea of advantage allowing for a bit more predictability...
 
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Troy Laurin
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Neva Kee wrote:
rgstarzinski wrote:
So if you have advantage and pull a rolling card and the null card, you still stick with no damage?

If this was the case, I will certainly house rule it to "choose one and, if you chose a rolling modifier card, continue drawing for it".

I like the idea of advantage allowing for a bit more predictability...


I know what you mean, but it does actually balance out. Yes, it looks like rolling modifier cards can reduce the effects of advantage, as you may roll your way into a null attack; but they have the same effect on disadvantage, where you can roll your way into a 2x attack. I'd consider house-ruling that advantage turns the null modifier card into a +0... but only if disadvantage turned the 2x card into a +0 as well.

It does seem a shame that rolling modifier cards reduces the efficacy of advantage, but it would take quite a while to get that many cards; maybe it's thematic that a character who has developed a flashy/risky fighting style is more susceptible to random chance? And/or just wouldn't be interested in ways of gaining advantage.

Leaning on the side of house-ruling before writing this. Leaning on the side of leaving it alone after writing this.
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Isaac Childres
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Indiana
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rgstarzinski wrote:
So if you have advantage and pull a rolling card and the null card, you still stick with no damage?

Yes, indeed.

rgstarzinski wrote:
Also for a null result, would the damage effects still take place? Aka no damage but would push, or poison?

Also a yes. The "no damage" card only affects your damage. Any additional effects still go through.

Also this is a very important point:
MrTroy wrote:
It does actually balance out. Yes, it looks like rolling modifier cards can reduce the effects of advantage, as you may roll your way into a null attack; but they have the same effect on disadvantage, where you can roll your way into a 2x attack.

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Rick Star
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OK, thanks Isaac. It makes sense in that way from a balance perspective, but it is a bit counter-intuitive that your advantage doesn't counter out a critical or that a disadvantage doesn't counter out a critical. I think my players will protest at first but looking at it from the effect on both the Null and 2x damage cards will help. A couple more examples would have been helpful even though I understand space is limited in the rules.
 
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Troy Laurin
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If anyone wants to complain about it, my suggestion would be to simply avoid adding rolling modifiers to their deck.

For each of the starting classes, there are at least 8 perks to choose (SW and TI both have 13) before you're forced to add a rolling modifier... by which time you're probably close to retirement anyway.

If it seriously becomes an issue with high-level characters, then I'd consider house-ruling advantage-null and disadvantage-2x.

ETA- I agree that it would have been worth specifically covering these cases in the rulebook. C'est la vie.
 
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Erik Burigo
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rgstarzinski wrote:
OK, thanks Isaac. It makes sense in that way from a balance perspective, but it is a bit counter-intuitive that your advantage doesn't counter out a critical or that a disadvantage doesn't counter out a critical. I think my players will protest at first but looking at it from the effect on both the Null and 2x damage cards will help. A couple more examples would have been helpful even though I understand space is limited in the rules.


A quick and dirty home rule could be:
a) Start drawing from the modifier deck.
b) If you draw a rolling modifier, keep drawing until you draw a non-rolling modifier.
c) Keep drawing until you get a second non-rolling modifier, but this time discard all rolling modifiers you draw.
d) You now have exactly 2 non-rolling modifiers + zero-to-many rolling modifiers.
e) Apply all rolling modifiers to the best (in case of advantage) or worst (in case of disadvantage) non-rolling modifier card.

 
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Ryan Smith
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Chantilly
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Painkeeper wrote:
rgstarzinski wrote:
OK, thanks Isaac. It makes sense in that way from a balance perspective, but it is a bit counter-intuitive that your advantage doesn't counter out a critical or that a disadvantage doesn't counter out a critical. I think my players will protest at first but looking at it from the effect on both the Null and 2x damage cards will help. A couple more examples would have been helpful even though I understand space is limited in the rules.


A quick and dirty home rule that could be:
a) Start drawing from the modifier deck.
b) If you draw a rolling modifier, keep drawing until you draw a non-rolling modifier.
c) Keep drawing until you get a second non-rolling modifier, but this time discard all rolling modifiers you draw.
d) You now have exactly 2 non-rolling modifiers + zero-to-many rolling modifiers.
e) Apply all rolling modifiers to the best (in case of advantage) or worst (in case of disadvantage) non-rolling modifier card.



An even quicker home-rule, for both advantages and disadvantages:

1) Draw two cards
2) Choose the appropriate one
3) Resolve card

If it's an advantage, you choose the better card; for disadvantage, the worse. Then you resolve, so if the chosen card is a rolling modifier, draw another.

That way it's still balanced, and advantage and disadvantage still matter if a rolling modifier is drawn.


 
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Troy Laurin
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That implies a canonical ordering for "best" though.

Which is better? "+Ice (rolling)" or "+Muddle (rolling)"? "+Invisible (rolling)" or "+1 (rolling)"? Even worse, is "+Immobilise (rolling)" better than "-1"? What if the next card is the null? Obviously you can figure out in a particular scenario which one is (likely to be) most beneficial, but it seems like extra room for disagreement. -1 may still have been enough to kill your target, or +Immobilise even with no damage may be best it to lock the target down for a round - plus you (probably) avoid the null on your next attack!

The more I think about this one, the more I think I'm going to just follow the rulebook. If anyone complains, I'll tell them it's their own fault for fighting "flashy".

More fun to consider rolling into a 2x from disadvantage though... scoundrel was backed into a corner by the last bandit and desperately threw her daggers at him. They flew over the bandit's shoulder, but luckily ricochet'd off a stone pillar, bounced off the top of the table and through the rope securing the chandelier, causing it to drop onto the hapless bandit for massive damage and thoroughly confusing him!
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Ryan Smith
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Chantilly
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Agreed, determining "better" and "worse" could sometimes be subjective. And I'm not saying the proposed house-rule is better than the rules as written; it's just an alternative. For me, I'll discuss it with my group and see which they prefer.
 
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