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Pericles: The Peloponnesian Wars» Forums » General

Subject: Ratings...give hate a chance... rss

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Mark Herman
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I am not sure how this works, but I wanted to make note that folks continue to rate this game and I am not aware that any of them have ever seen or played the game.

I now note that I have attracted a 1 rating, so I guess the rating system is some kind of random event... very sad.

Mark
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MarkHerman wrote:
I am not sure how this works, but I wanted to make note that folks continue to rate this game and I am not aware that any of them have ever seen or played the game.

I now note that I have attracted a 1 rating, so I guess the rating system is some kind of random event... very sad.

Mark
I have inquired about this in other forums and was told that this rating system is meant to be how excited you are about the game and/or what you think about it. A totally confusing and meaningless system, IMO, which is why I never rate anything. Were I to rate my interest in this I'd give it a 10! Thanks for all you do for this hobby! My hats off to you.

I just enjoyed listening to you on the Ludology podcast, BTW.
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Rick Thompson
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MarkHerman wrote:
I am not sure how this works, but I wanted to make note that folks continue to rate this game and I am not aware that any of them have ever seen or played the game.

I now note that I have attracted a 1 rating, so I guess the rating system is some kind of random event... very sad.

Mark


Game ratings are a bit of a crap shoot here. That "1" rating can't possibly be legit. That user has rated over 3800 games and expansions a "1". He looks to be a low rating spammer, someone who gives credence to the idea that the rating system here is broken and needs an overhaul.

Sad, really. shake
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Resist the Kakistocracy
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A quick look at that user's history shows that they just this month (Nov 2016) went through and gave more than 2,500 games a rating of 1. The 60+ games they've rated a 10 indicate that I wouldn't put much weight behind his or her opinion of a wargame.

The ratings system on this site isn't very useful, and I think most people take any ratings with a Gibraltar-sized grain of salt (I do, at least). I wouldn't worry too much about it.

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Jason Sadler
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Somebody suggested it may very well be a script that auto-assigns 1s to new games. Not sure why or what that means, but the evidence seems to support the hypothesis.
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Marius van der Merwe
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The hate rating phenomenon seems to exist everywhere. In addition to being a board gamer I am also an avid rock climber who have put up new climbing routes that can then be entered into a data base (mountainproject.com in this case). Climbers that then climb the routes can subsequently rate the climbs. Inevitably there are people on the site who who hate rate hundreds of climbs that they could not possibly have climbed. It is a mystery to me what motivates some people to do this.
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jamuki (Jueguetistorias)
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Mark, this is an auto-buy for those of us who know about it. Do not worry about the people who rate games they haven't played.

I just hope that the bots will not get so arrogant as the Churchill bot, who loves to trash me

BTW: See this thread about that user

EDIT: English is not my first language. I have been told that the word I used for the bot, uppity, is a loaded word used by racists. I did not know. I humbly apologized. I meant to be arrogant.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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MarkHerman wrote:
I now note that I have attracted a 1 rating, so I guess the rating system is some kind of random event... very sad.

Ah, the infamous "Smjj" strikes again.

BGG shillbuster formula makes this sort of thing no concern.
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John Bradshaw
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Adverb wrote:
The ratings system on this site isn't very useful


I think I understand where you're coming from but I'd have to disagree with that. I think it's a great system, despite oddities like the aforementioned "1" voter, and the mercifully few others who might vote with various grudges or prejudices. Any highly rated game on BGG - with a minimum of (say) 100 votes or more - is a good game. It might not be my cup of tea - for example it may be a party game when I prefer strategy, or I may not be enamoured of the theme or whatever - but in any event, I personally have never been let down by the ratings system. I'm not automatically going to like a highly rated game, personal taste being what it is, but highly rated games are always worthy of my attention, because they are, in the judgement of my excellent fellow geeks, good games.

The ranking system is a little more dubious. This uses the fudged BGG rating, which is designed to weed out voting shills it seems, but it has the disadvantage that it hides newer games which have not yet sold in large numbers. The easy way around that is simply to look at average ratings. Apply a filter of (say) 100 votes or more, and a minimum rating of (say) 7.5 or whatever, and this will highlight a number of hot newer games which have not yet reached a wider audience. (I've discovered a number of gems this way, which I would almost certainly not have found without the rating system.)

I'm confident that this "1" rating will pale into the insignificance it deserves, once this game is in the hands of players. I'm keenly awaiting my copy!

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Mike Welker
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I can counter balance it with a 10.

But seriously, a rating by 1 contributor is worthless as any indication of real sentiments for the wider population...
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J. R. Tracy
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sdiberar wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
I now note that I have attracted a 1 rating, so I guess the rating system is some kind of random event... very sad.

Ah, the infamous "Smjj" strikes again.


It's a badge of honor at this point.
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Charles Finch
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fwiw, and it matters little except as a data point for the discussion...regarding:
I have inquired about this in other forums and was told that this rating system is meant to be how excited you are about the game and/or what you think about it

this may be a "street" usage but the only guidelines i see on the site related to this is (in part):
https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Ratings&redirectedfrom=R...

Although these ratings are entirely subjective, here are the suggested guidelines:

10 - Outstanding. Always want to play, expect this will never change.
9 - Excellent. Always want to play.
8 - Very good. Like to play, will probably suggest it, will never turn it down.
7 - Good. Usually willing to play.
6 - Fair. Some fun or challenge at least, will play occasionally if in the right mood.
5 - Average. No significant appeal, take it or leave it.
4 - Below average. Slightly boring, could be talked into it on occasion.
3 - Poor. Likely won't play this again although could be convinced.
2 - Very poor. Annoying, I plan to never play this again.
1 - Defies description of a game. You won't catch me dead playing this. Clearly broken.

So not possible to (fairly) rate a game you haven't at least play tested. Maybe we need a second pre-release index for "excitement level while awaiting the release" or such

Anyhow, one more piece of (semi-useless) data now added to the infosphere ;-)

good gaming all.
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Hawkeye
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I don't think what the ratings are supposed to mean is relevant when an obvious troll rates almost two thousand games a 1 simply because he can and the admins refuse to delete his account.
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Charles Finch
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true, i was more pointing out the divergence between how the "street" sees things vs the expected (ie how excited rating from prior comment). I could be over the top (10) excited and then get the game be highly disappointed and need to change to say 4-6.
This further skews how this "should" work by adding pre release excitement causing folks to possibly order a game then you look at latest ratings and they all dropped due "bad execution"
 
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Holman
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"Every generation gets the Greeks and Romans it deserves."

Smjj is obviously our barbarian.
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Maarten D. de Jong
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MarkHerman wrote:
I am not sure how this works, but I wanted to make note that folks continue to rate this game and I am not aware that any of them have ever seen or played the game.

I now note that I have attracted a 1 rating, so I guess the rating system is some kind of random event... very sad.

The admins have clearly stated on numerous occasions: Anyone can rate any game with any rate for any reason. The only thing strictly prohibited ('ban'-prohibitive) is using multiple accounts to rate the same game.

That means in practice:
— rates are personal and subjective, and not objective, and never have to follow the 'guideline': that is a suggestion, nothing more;
— since the meaning of the rate is most often not listed, your guess is as good as anybody's as to why someone settled on a specific rate;
— and because the BGG user interface is very austere, it is well known that people have resorted to 'abusing' the rates to record personal information which bears no relation to the game's inherent qualities, even though sometimes BGG does offer an appropriate spot for that info;
— strictly speaking you ought to be as wary of a 10 as you are of a 1;
— it is not possible to require mandatory play logging in order to rate: there are many people who rate 'honourably' (for the purpose of this discussion, not a 1) but do not log;
— making comments mandatory cannot be enforced for a number of reasons;
— 1's do not hurt visibility of the game, because a) BGG offers very few tools of discovery to begin with, b) most games are stuck at a rank noone cares about much, and c) 1's will be drowned out if b) ever changes for the better;
— there are many sources of information which give an overview of much higher quality than a commentless rate (reviews, session reports, simply discussing the game, ...), so capitalise on those;
— there is a shill-filter active whose exact working is unknown, but is speculated to look at things like site activity, login time, and overall rating pattern. Rates which do not pass the filter get dropped, silently, from subsequent calcuations... and no, it isn't just 1's which are removed! However, it is not unlikely that this individual's rates are not filtered if he behaves like a regular user otherwise.

The shill filter is something completely different from the Bayesian dummy votes, which also get added in order to compute rank. The dummy votes were added to attempt to correct rater bias in that you'd only rate if you were interested in the game in the first place. The 'true' rate which you'd get if 'everybody' rated would be lower. The idea in itself isn't that bad, really, but the current implementation of it sucks monkey balls. There are much better algorithms available (all part of standard Big Data analysis) for this sort of thing.

So where does that leave users?
— Rank is no measure of 'quality'; therefore unless you know your tastes to align with the average of the BGG user you can't use rank as a predictive tool;
— instead use geekbuddies, and give rates so others can geekbuddy you;
— take it all with a large grain of salt. It's nice to create lists and speculate meticulously about whether newcomer X will break into the top #100 or even higher... but when you get right down to it, it's silly fluff;
— and whatever you do, DON'T succumb to the need to give an anti-shill or compensatory vote. It hurts your own credibility (as many never cancel that vote), and in the case that the system does consider a user a shill your legitimate vote doesn't cancel anything, and in fact skews the result.
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Wendell
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Morons exist.

BTW - I've playtested Pericles, and it rocks.
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Hawkeye
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cymric wrote:

The admins have clearly stated on numerous occasions: Anyone can rate any game with any rate for any reason.



Except this isn't about rating games. It's about trolling and by condoning it, the admins are lowering community standards.
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Matthew Banner
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I thought the "for any reason" portion covered the petty, tangential uses as well. And it seemed to do so without feeling the need to flail at every misuse and injustice along the way considering that seems a rather exhausting and futile exercise. The "morons exist" comment seemed to encapsulate the issue neatly too- especially because it immediately followed that with a period and no other comment. Perhaps seen as premature resignation for some. I would simply call it wisdom and judicious use of energy.
 
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Geoff Conn
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I don't rate games I haven't played.

Can't wait to rate this one.
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Fred W. Manzo
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Mark:

Yes, the system is clearly in need of repair when someone can rate 4,200 games a "1" and nothing is done about it. Saying some mysterious, unknown formula will take care of it, when 4,200 "1" ratings still effects 4,200 game averages makes the averages themselves less meaningful. What if everyone rated every game they didn't have an interest in playing a "1"?

In addition, the official meaning of a "1" rating is "this is a broken game", not "I have no interest in this type of game," so how can a game be judged as broken if you obviously haven't played it?

- Fred
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John Bradshaw
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I imagine that the (somewhat sad?) individual giving out all these "1" ratings is probably enjoying the attention he seems to be getting here, and in a number of other quarters that I've noticed.

Personally I choose to ignore him (it's bound to be male surely?) - and never mention his name, but I understand the indignation of others on the issue. I just reckon that there's more than enough intelligence on the Geek to drown out this sort of rubbish behaviour.
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uppity is not a loaded racist terms, it simply means putting on airs, or thinking your better than someone else. It may mean simply, acting like you have more than you do, or behaving in a manner which predicts extreme wealth. Don't worry about the PC police they are ruining the world!!! Uppity Idiots!!!
 
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Wendell
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nicky_longbranch wrote:
uppity is not a loaded racist terms, it simply means putting on airs, or thinking your better than someone else. It may mean simply, acting like you have more than you do, or behaving in a manner which predicts extreme wealth.


Depends on the context, as this usage note explains: "Be careful about using this in interracial situations: White Americans have used this to describe black people whom they considered not submissive and subservient enough."
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Chandler
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context is everything!!!
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