Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
43 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Conan» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rules update rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Chris Barton
United Kingdom
Morden
Surrey
flag msg tools

So it seems the mid month French rules revision has yet to materialise, which has likely delayed the English PDF due for the end of November...does anyone have any updated information on this?

The Monolith website doesn't seem to have much feedback for KS backers to go on, and it would be nice to have a definitive rule set on the horizon that can eliminate potential arguments and constant forum scouring!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Berlin
not Bavaria
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There was a ks update today. #178?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Sherry
United States
Great Falls
VA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
French hero book released yesterday online. EN coming soon.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kurt B
United States
Kansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Black Knight wrote:
French hero book released yesterday online. EN coming soon.


Can any of our French-speaking friends comment on its quality?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ze Masqued Cucumber
France
flag msg tools
Protze et Chniaque !
badge
C'est le Gomazio à crête mordorée, dont le cri annonce le soir...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kbieb wrote:
Black Knight wrote:
French hero book released yesterday online. EN coming soon.


Can any of our French-speaking friends comment on its quality?

Good .
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephan Beal
Germany
Geltendorf
Bayern
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
kbieb wrote:
Black Knight wrote:
French hero book released yesterday online. EN coming soon.


Can any of our French-speaking friends comment on its quality?


AFAIK, the quality of the French manual (v1) was never really in question. It is, as often as not, used as the basis for figuring out the bugs in the English edition.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CK Lai
Malaysia
Subang Jaya
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sgbeal wrote:
kbieb wrote:
Black Knight wrote:
French hero book released yesterday online. EN coming soon.


Can any of our French-speaking friends comment on its quality?


AFAIK, the quality of the French manual (v1) was never really in question. It is, as often as not, used as the basis for figuring out the bugs in the English edition.


I think it's more like: has the rulebook been overhauled? Small things like: what are the tokens for? How to interpret the terrain on the boards etc.

I agree the actual rulebook is actually usable. It's more the skills and cards info that suffered from poor translations.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Sherry
United States
Great Falls
VA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes it has. Take a look at the download off update 178.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephan Beal
Germany
Geltendorf
Bayern
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Chinkster wrote:
I think it's more like: has the rulebook been overhauled?


i haven't yet dared to look at the new French one because i can't read a word of it whistle.

Chinkster wrote:
Small things like: what are the tokens for?


The meanings of the tokens is always scenario-specific, and i've always liked that they didn't force specific names onto each type of token. i would certainly have liked to see a component list, but with descriptions like "X {PICTURE OF TOKEN}" instead of "X Reinforcement tokens: {PICTURE OF TOKEN}".

Chinkster wrote:
How to interpret the terrain on the boards etc.


That i most certainly would welcome. i heard a rumor here on the forums that the new book(s) will show us the official answers for how to check LOS on each map.

Chinkster wrote:
I agree the actual rulebook is actually usable. It's more the skills and cards info that suffered from poor translations.


Agreed completely. i've seen no word from Monolith that they will correct either of those cry.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Roolz wrote:
kbieb wrote:
Black Knight wrote:
French hero book released yesterday online. EN coming soon.


Can any of our French-speaking friends comment on its quality?

Good .
Does it address Ally activation? What are the other rules that were completely missed?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephan Beal
Germany
Geltendorf
Bayern
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Squatting Monkey wrote:
What are the other rules that were completely missed?


Those which immediately come to mind (which i hope are added in the v2 book)...

- skills which apply in Cautious mode (Counterattack, Support, etc.). i.e. what we've been calling "passive/reactive" skills here in the forum

- the ability of a Hero Leader to spend gems to add movement to, or defend, Allies.


Each of those was mentioned/clarified by BadKam (from Monolith) somewhere here in the forum.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathieu Hatt
France
Brest
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There are already quite a lot of feedback on the french forum regarding this new version. Overall it is much better than the previous one. However there are still things that can be improved. Overall, we recommended the addition of a table of contents, an index, a full description of skills (right now there are only "additional infos" regarding the skills described on the gaming aid sheets, but not a full description of all skills), and so forth. Hopefully this will be taken into account for a definitive version before it is translated into English.
We are still waiting for the overlord book.
Some have suggested a single book with all the rules (heroes+overlord), keeping the scenarios in a separate book. I have to admit I think this would be a good idea, so that the players are able to keep the scenario book open to the corresponding page, while being able to go through the rulebook.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephan Beal
Germany
Geltendorf
Bayern
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
mathhatt wrote:
There are already quite a lot of feedback on the french forum regarding this new version. Overall it is much better than the previous one.


:-D

mathhatt wrote:
However there are still things that can be improved.


That will always be the case. Monolith is in a hurry to get this done, so there are limits to what we can expect here.

mathhatt wrote:
Overall, we recommended the addition of a table of contents, an index, a full description of skills (right now there are only "additional infos" regarding the skills described on the gaming aid sheets, but not a full description of all skills), and so forth. Hopefully this will be taken into account for a definitive version before it is translated into English.


i'd be really surprised if they can add an index at this point if they still plan on releasing the English version in "late November." In my experience, adding an index to a document requires a surprising amount of effort.

mathhatt wrote:
We are still waiting for the overlord book. Some have suggested a single book with all the rules (heroes+overlord), ...


i personally prefer that the hero and OL books are separate, but that seems to be a minority opinion - many players have complained about that. i have not yet had any problems figuring out which rule book i need to be looking at to answer any given question. In any case, i have no strong preference regarding the separation or joining of the books.

mathhatt wrote:
...keeping the scenarios in a separate book. I have to admit I think this would be a good idea, so that the players are able to keep the scenario book open to the corresponding page, while being able to go through the rulebook.


Not only should the scenarios be in their own book, but the page layout is important: the 2 pages of each scenario "really should" face each other, so that you can open the booklet to that scenario and leave it laying flat on the table. In the current extra booklet of 4 scenarios, the layout is such that each scenario is on the front and back of a single physical page, so you constantly have to flip the page back and forth to see all the scenario info. That is epically annoying during scenario setup.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Howard Massey
United States
Wichita
Kansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
mathhatt wrote:
There are already quite a lot of feedback on the french forum regarding this new version. Overall it is much better than the previous one. However there are still things that can be improved. Overall, we recommended the addition of a table of contents, an index, a full description of skills (right now there are only "additional infos" regarding the skills described on the gaming aid sheets, but not a full description of all skills), and so forth. Hopefully this will be taken into account for a definitive version before it is translated into English.
We are still waiting for the overlord book.
Some have suggested a single book with all the rules (heroes+overlord), keeping the scenarios in a separate book. I have to admit I think this would be a good idea, so that the players are able to keep the scenario book open to the corresponding page, while being able to go through the rulebook.


What is this 'allergic aversion' with some game companies to having a table of contents, an index,a definition list,or a directory ??

Any, any kind of list -that suggest organization !!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephan Beal
Germany
Geltendorf
Bayern
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
kskato wrote:
What is this 'allergic aversion' with some game companies to having a table of contents, an index,a definition list,or a directory ??

Any, any kind of list -that suggest organization !!!


To get some appreciation for the effort invovled, try creating and maintaining a table of contents, list of definitions, and index in multiple languages.

Creating a good index in even a single language takes a surprising amount of effort.

If the authoring tools don't directly support features such as indexes, creating and maintaining them by hand is prohibitively difficult. e.g. if the word processor being used does not support indexes directly, then every time a paragraph slides up or down a line, the whole index has to be manually checked to make sure that every single page number reference still applies. Because equivalent text in multiple languages have different lengths, the page numbers for all languages involved have to be manually checked, so multiply the effort by the number of languages. For every single change to the rules.

My point is only: such features are not nearly as easy to implement as they may initially appear.

Given Monolith's aggressive timeline on the v2 manual, it would be (IMO) highly unrealistic to expect it to have an index. A ToC and/or list of terminology, maybe, but a definition list brings other problems: they'd have to go back and make sure that they don't use any of those terms in conflicting ways, and fixing any such misuses requires more changes to the manual, which risks breaking the semantics (i.e. changing the meaning of the rules). That effort multiplies per language. Adding a formal list of definitions to a game which wasn't built from the ground up with them in place opens up a can of worms.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig K
msg tools
Had a look through the french book. Although I don't speak a lick of french I was impressed with the layout just based of the new examples of play it seems much clearer. Also it was quite easy to work out some of the new clarifications too, like a hero with leadership's additional abilities and such. Looks promising just have to wait for that translation....
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Groesbeck
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hate to be bringer of bad news, but after running some sections of the new rule-book through Google translate, there is still going to be an annoying lack of clarity (unless a v3 rule-book is in the works). I ran just a few sections and came up with these things:

While it does have a detailed section on using the Leadership skill and Allies, that section still is not clear on if a Hero in Cautious Stance can spend gems to Guard his Allies (and on Rerolls if you don't like the result of the Guard roll). It is clear that you have be in aggressive stance to activate an ally and that you can spend gems on additional movement, Guard and Re-rolls for allies. Like I said, the only thing not clear is if you can Guard/Re-roll for allies while in cautious stance.

Can a unit with Support use the rerolls it grants for their own actions or only on actions of OTHER friendly units?

Can you add gems to increase the strength of a Counterattack? If you can, can you do so no matter what your most recent Stance was?

The clarification on Wall Wrecker reads like it costs two Movement Points to break through a wall and doing so puts you on the other side without needing to spend a third gem. The BBG consensus seems to be that Wall Wrecker is supposed to cost two additional movement points over what it would normally cost to make the move. But the wording of the clarification puts that in doubt.

I bet there are other things still not clear, but I'm not going to run the whole rule-book through Google translate.

Note I posted these things in the KS comments but I'm repeating them here for more visibility.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken H
United States
New York
flag msg tools
Google translate is where you lost me. It is incapable of applying context or choosing the correct word of several applicable and not really appropriate here.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Howard Massey
United States
Wichita
Kansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
sgbeal wrote:
kskato wrote:
What is this 'allergic aversion' with some game companies to having a table of contents, an index,a definition list,or a directory ??

Any, any kind of list -that suggest organization !!!


To get some appreciation for the effort invovled, try creating and maintaining a table of contents, list of definitions, and index in multiple languages.

Creating a good index in even a single language takes a surprising amount of effort.

If the authoring tools don't directly support features such as indexes, creating and maintaining them by hand is prohibitively difficult. e.g. if the word processor being used does not support indexes directly, then every time a paragraph slides up or down a line, the whole index has to be manually checked to make sure that every single page number reference still applies. Because equivalent text in multiple languages have different lengths, the page numbers for all languages involved have to be manually checked, so multiply the effort by the number of languages. For every single change to the rules.

My point is only: such features are not nearly as easy to implement as they may initially appear.

Given Monolith's aggressive timeline on the v2 manual, it would be (IMO) highly unrealistic to expect it to have an index. A ToC and/or list of terminology, maybe, but a definition list brings other problems: they'd have to go back and make sure that they don't use any of those terms in conflicting ways, and fixing any such misuses requires more changes to the manual, which risks breaking the semantics (i.e. changing the meaning of the rules). That effort multiplies per language. Adding a formal list of definitions to a game which wasn't built from the ground up with them in place opens up a can of worms.


Well Stephen most manual,instructions,books of any kind have ..
'something' ...
usually in minimum of two languages.
Whether an automobile,appliance,toys,electronics or cheap furniture.

I guess the other game companies are fools supplying indexes,etc !?
It's lazy & sloppy of Monolith, especially with the first edition publication .

Oh well_Ah hell

And here 'We' all are ...whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephan Beal
Germany
Geltendorf
Bayern
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
JamesG wrote:

While it does have a detailed section on using the Leadership skill and Allies, that section still is not clear on if a Hero in Cautious Stance can spend gems to Guard his Allies (and on Rerolls if you don't like the result of the Guard roll).


The French version (v1) specifies that Cautious stance allows "defense and rerolls." English mistranslates that as "Guard and rerolls." Thus spending gems to "defend" an Ally will "almost certainly" be allowed. This is the basis of the Bodyguard skill, which (A) is used to "defend" another character and (B) is allowed when Cautious (because "defense" is allowed - this has been confirmed by Monolith in this forum).

JamesG wrote:
Can a unit with Support use the rerolls it grants for their own actions or only on actions of OTHER friendly units?


"Friendly characters in this character's area..."

reads to me as "everyone but yourself." Having it apply to the Supporter himself would effectively add a free re-roll to EVERYTHING that character does, bringing it sorely out of balance with other skills.

JamesG wrote:
Can you add gems to increase the strength of a Counterattack?


No because it's not an attack, but a triggered ability with a fixed dice amount. Same for Attack from Beyond. This was clarified by, IIRC, Pallantides (Conan playtester).

JamesG wrote:
If you can, can you do so no matter what your most recent Stance was?


Yes: it is a passive/reactive skill. This has been explicitly clarified by Monolith here in the forums.

JamesG wrote:
The clarification on Wall Wrecker reads like it costs two Movement Points to break through a wall and doing so puts you on the other side without needing to spend a third gem. The BBG consensus seems to be that Wall Wrecker is supposed to cost two additional movement points over what it would normally cost to make the move. But the wording of the clarification puts that in doubt.


The v1 French version says "2 additional movement", so the cost is the cost of the target space plus 2 (normally, but not always, a total of 3). i hope they didn't bugger that one up again.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephan Beal
Germany
Geltendorf
Bayern
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
kskato wrote:

Well Stephen most manual,instructions,books of any kind have ..
'something' ...
usually in minimum of two languages.
Whether an automobile,appliance,toys,electronics or cheap furniture.


And it's a tremendous amount of effort and cost. (My ex-wife used to write/maintain such documentation for a large computer manufacturer.)

kskato wrote:
I guess the other game companies are fools supplying indexes,etc !?


They're not richer for it, in any case.

kskato wrote:
It's lazy & sloppy of Monolith, especially with the first edition publication .


i don't discount that, but if i were in Monolith's management, i would likely have a hard time justifying the cost of such an effort. i.e. it doesn't surprise me in the least bit that they haven't got an index.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I won't buy a reference book if it doesn't have an index!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sgbeal wrote:
kskato wrote:
What is this 'allergic aversion' with some game companies to having a table of contents, an index,a definition list,or a directory ??

Any, any kind of list -that suggest organization !!!


To get some appreciation for the effort invovled, try creating and maintaining a table of contents, list of definitions, and index in multiple languages.

Creating a good index in even a single language takes a surprising amount of effort.

If the authoring tools don't directly support features such as indexes, creating and maintaining them by hand is prohibitively difficult. e.g. if the word processor being used does not support indexes directly, then every time a paragraph slides up or down a line, the whole index has to be manually checked to make sure that every single page number reference still applies. Because equivalent text in multiple languages have different lengths, the page numbers for all languages involved have to be manually checked, so multiply the effort by the number of languages. For every single change to the rules.

My point is only: such features are not nearly as easy to implement as they may initially appear.

Given Monolith's aggressive timeline on the v2 manual, it would be (IMO) highly unrealistic to expect it to have an index. A ToC and/or list of terminology, maybe, but a definition list brings other problems: they'd have to go back and make sure that they don't use any of those terms in conflicting ways, and fixing any such misuses requires more changes to the manual, which risks breaking the semantics (i.e. changing the meaning of the rules). That effort multiplies per language. Adding a formal list of definitions to a game which wasn't built from the ground up with them in place opens up a can of worms.
Or you just make the index the last thing you do after layout. It involves listing all subjects on each page, then parsing them into an alphabetical index, you don't need a program or a team of editors. It's not a history tome, you just need a high school grad and a dream
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sgbeal wrote:
[q="kskato"]


Given Monolith's aggressive timeline on the v2 manual, it would be (IMO) highly unrealistic to expect it to have an index. A ToC and/or list of terminology, maybe, but a definition list brings other problems: they'd have to go back and make sure that they don't use any of those terms in conflicting ways, and fixing any such misuses requires more changes to the manual, which risks breaking the semantics (i.e. changing the meaning of the rules). That effort multiplies per language. Adding a formal list of definitions to a game which wasn't built from the ground up with them in place opens up a can of worms.


Look, I have tons of love for Monolith and the scope of what they are taking on, but this is precisely what they took on. Conan has an international cult of fans; it is a sacred cow. Of all things to create for Conan a modern board game is amongst the most intricate and complex; to open it up the to an international market is a big decision. The market responded quite positively, weathered the delays, some better than others, and now there are some details that need to be addressed. They don't necessarily need to ship out new rule books to everyone, there is inherent risk in Kickstarter, just like there is risk anytime you purchase the first edition of anything. However, they do need a FAQ, or a PDF.

It is in their best interest to create the best quality possible since their reputation hinges on this game. The way they respond matters (see Myth debacle -- and to be honest, the Myth issues weren't nearly as bad as you would suspect, but their handling of the situation was abysmal). For a license of this quality, I do think they need an index, and updated skill sheets (PDF) and an updated website, and someone devoted to community support who is proficient with English (hire Jamie full time). They have unleashed a behemoth in gaming and they must now stand as stewards of this thing. The community is willing to do much of the work, we just need the tools. I will index the English version at their request.

I think e expected much of this tedious work to be done during the production delays. Now it seems that they are scrambling to fix this and support Mythic Battles. It may be time for Monolith to expand their crew and to utilize their backers for play testing and editing. Parsing language and having to establish consistency in terms is what they signed on for.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Squatting Monkey wrote:
sgbeal wrote:
kskato wrote:
What is this 'allergic aversion' with some game companies to having a table of contents, an index,a definition list,or a directory ??

Any, any kind of list -that suggest organization !!!


To get some appreciation for the effort invovled, try creating and maintaining a table of contents, list of definitions, and index in multiple languages.

Creating a good index in even a single language takes a surprising amount of effort.

If the authoring tools don't directly support features such as indexes, creating and maintaining them by hand is prohibitively difficult. e.g. if the word processor being used does not support indexes directly, then every time a paragraph slides up or down a line, the whole index has to be manually checked to make sure that every single page number reference still applies. Because equivalent text in multiple languages have different lengths, the page numbers for all languages involved have to be manually checked, so multiply the effort by the number of languages. For every single change to the rules.

My point is only: such features are not nearly as easy to implement as they may initially appear.

Given Monolith's aggressive timeline on the v2 manual, it would be (IMO) highly unrealistic to expect it to have an index. A ToC and/or list of terminology, maybe, but a definition list brings other problems: they'd have to go back and make sure that they don't use any of those terms in conflicting ways, and fixing any such misuses requires more changes to the manual, which risks breaking the semantics (i.e. changing the meaning of the rules). That effort multiplies per language. Adding a formal list of definitions to a game which wasn't built from the ground up with them in place opens up a can of worms.
Or you just make the index the last thing you do after layout. It involves listing all subjects on each page, then parsing them into an alphabetical index, you don't need a program or a team of editors. It's not a history tome, you just need a high school grad and a dream
As for the definitions, you're thinking of a glossary, but yes, I think this should be expected as well.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.