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Subject: How to resolve this conflicting situation? rss

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I saw this situation come up in a Youtube video and I'm not sure how you'd resolve it. This is with the base game.

An investigator in the Library gets an encounter that tells him to go to the Dreamlands, have an encounter there, and immediately return to the same location. The drawn Other World encounter forces the investigator to pass a skill check or lose 2 stamina and stay put in the Other World for the next turn. In the video the investigator passed the check, but if he had failed would he return to Arkham or stay in the Other World, and either way would he be delayed?
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Reggie P
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If I failed the check, I would stay in the Dreamlands. I think this is in keeping with the general out-of-nowhere crazy difficulty fun of the game!

It also seems logical to me that the text of the Other World card would trump the text of the Arkham Encounter card.
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Austin Fleming
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I would follow both instructions. If you fail, remain in the Dreamlands and have another encounter next turn, then return to the Library.

He just had a very long dream...
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M.C.Crispy
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How was the "stay put in OW" phrased? If it was "become delayed" or "miss your turn" (a rare option) I'd do that and return to the original Location in the specified condition (you "come back" from the OW, but you're in no fit state to do anything useful until you've spent some time recovering).

Generally speaking, I try to execute the instructions of the game with a minimum of interpretation. The encounter said "go there, have an encounter, come straight back" so that's what I'd do.
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Reggie P
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anoirtrou wrote:
I would follow both instructions. If you fail, remain in the Dreamlands and have another encounter next turn, then return to the Library.

He just had a very long dream...


I really like this interpretation as well. It makes sense from a playability standpoint as it's quite possible if an investigator must stay in the Dreamlands after being delayed, it's likely they'll have no way back and end up lost in time and space!
 
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Adam Tucker
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I'm guessing the encounters were:
Library Encounter wrote:
You doze off and enter the Dreamlands. Have an encounter there, then immediately return here.

Other World Encounter - Other wrote:
The rope seems to extend upwards forever, but it's the only way out of the crevasse you find yourself in. Pass a Fight (-1) check to climb it and return to Arkham. If you fail, you fall, losing 2 Stamina and staying here next turn.
Both of these encounters are from the base game.
In this particular case my ruling would be that the Other World encounter supersedes the Library encounter and you stay in the Dreamlands delayed.

This would mostly be based on the still-not-all-encompassing-FAQ's ruling here:
AH FAQ p. 9 wrote:
Q: If an encounter instructs that an investigator must
“stay here for two turns and gain two Clue tokens,” must
the player forfeit the Clue tokens if some effect (such as
the appearance of a gate) forces the investigator to leave
that location before the two turns are up?
A: No; the two effects (“stay here” and “gain Clue tokens”)
are not interdependent. If, for example, a gate opens before
the investigator has spent two turns in the location, the
investigator is drawn through the gate and delayed in an
Other World. The new condition – being delayed in an
Other World – can supersede the “stay here” instruction
without affecting the “gain Clue tokens” instruction.
Based on this ruling I would rule that the new condition "stay here next turn" supersedes the Library encounter instruction to "immediately return here".

Somewhat more curiously, I would rule that this particular Other World encounter supersedes the Library encounter for the pass effect as well, because it contains the key words "Return to Arkham":
AH FAQ p. 9 wrote:
Q: Do I receive an “explored” marker if I enter the first
area of an Other World, cast “Find Gate,” and return to
Arkham?
A: Yes. In general, whenever you “return to Arkham,” you
reappear at a gate that leads to the Other World you were
in and gain an “explored” marker.

Now if there is an open gate to the Dreamlands, or the investigator having this combination of encounters has a Gate Box and there is a different open gate on the board (there almost always should be), then that's not too bad for the investigator, but otherwise in trying to fulfill the "return to Arkham" instruction of the pass effect on the Other World encounter, the investigator will be Lost in Time and Space, and this condition will also override the "immediately return here" instruction of the Library encounter.
However if there is an appropriate available gate, then after moving to that gate the investigator would return to the Library, per the original encounter instructions.

There is also a Dreamlands specific encounter from the Arkham Horror: The Curse of the Dark Pharaoh Expansion (Revised Edition) that I would rule the same way:
Other World Encounter - Dreamlands wrote:
You come upon the borderlands. Pass a Lore (-2) check to gain 1 Stamina and 1 Sanity and return to Arkham. If you fail, move to the Plateau of Leng and your turn ends.


In general I would attempt to carry out all applicable instructions of an encounter (or other card) to the fullest ability possible evaluating each step fully, but independently, under the idea that the game has as little "memory" as possible:

Library Encounter
1. "enter the Dreamlands"
2. "Have an encounter there"
Other World Encounter
2.1. Pass a Fight (-1) check
Condition: Pass
2.1.c1.1. "climb it and return to Arkham"
Condition: Investigator has Gate Box Unique Item
Condition: There is an open gate
2.1.c1.1.c1c1.1. Investigator picks an open gate on the board and moves to it per "return to Arkham" and "Gate Box" (a)
Condition: There are no open gates
(Optional - players lament either their lack of gate trophies or their ability to determine that the game has already ended - depending on which is applicable)
2.1.c1.1.c1c2.1. Investigator is Lost in Time and Space (b)
Condition: Investigator does not have the Gate Box Unique Item
Condition: There is an open gate to the Dreamlands
2.1.c1.1.c2c1.1. Investigator picks an open gate to the Dreamlands on the board and moves to it per "return to Arkham" (a)
Condition: There are no open gates to the Dreamlands
2.1.c1.1.c2c2.1. Investigator is Lost in Time and Space (b)
Condition: Fail
2.1.c2.1. "you fall, losing 2 Stamina"
2.1.c2.2. "staying here next turn" (c)
2.1.c2.3. Investigator is delayed, per "stay here next turn"
3. "then immediately return here"
Condition: Other World result (a)
3.c1.1. Return to the Library per "then immediately return here"
Condition: Other World result (b)
3.c2.1. Cannot execute per new condition "Lost in Time and Space" - "The investigator loses his next turn, remaining in the Lost in Time and Space area."
Condition: Other World result (c)
3.c3.1. Cannot execute per new condition "stay here next turn"
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Salty
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The FAQ clarifies that "stay here next turn" is meant to be the same as becoming delayed. So the Dreamlands encounter would make you delayed, and then you would return to the Library as a result of the Library encounter, so you would end up delayed in the Library.
 
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Bern Harkins
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1337salty wrote:
The FAQ clarifies that "stay here next turn" is meant to be the same as becoming delayed. So the Dreamlands encounter would make you delayed, and then you would return to the Library as a result of the Library encounter, so you would end up delayed in the Library.


This is my read on it, as well.
 
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Adam Tucker
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Radulla wrote:
1337salty wrote:
The FAQ clarifies that "stay here next turn" is meant to be the same as becoming delayed. So the Dreamlands encounter would make you delayed, and then you would return to the Library as a result of the Library encounter, so you would end up delayed in the Library.


This is my read on it, as well.
This does not seem to be supported by the FAQ answer here:
AH FAQ p. 9 wrote:
Q: If an encounter instructs that an investigator must
“stay here for two turns and gain two Clue tokens,” must
the player forfeit the Clue tokens if some effect (such as
the appearance of a gate) forces the investigator to leave
that location before the two turns are up?
A: No; the two effects (“stay here” and “gain Clue tokens”)
are not interdependent. If, for example, a gate opens before
the investigator has spent two turns in the location, the
investigator is drawn through the gate and delayed in an
Other World. The new condition – being delayed in an
Other World – can supersede the “stay here” instruction
without affecting the “gain Clue tokens” instruction.
So, while "stay here next turn" does mean the investigator is delayed (and that any and all things that apply to delayed investigators also apply to those investigators instructed to "stay here next turn"), "stay here next turn" appears to have a slightly stronger meaning than just delayed. Note that in the FAQ answer above, the investigator is still delayed, but a new condition has superseded the the “stay here” instruction.
Additionally, if the two conditions were completely equivalent, why wouldn't FFG pare down to just use the simpler keyword delayed instead of continuing to use both terms all the way through Miskatonic?
Other World Encounter - Other; Miskatonic Horror wrote:
You find something that looks to be valuable, broken into many small pieces. If you wish, draw a Unique Item and stay here next turn as you reassemble it.

Other World Encounter - Other; Miskatonic Horror wrote:
You find a sheltered area, a veritable oasis in this strange place. You may take the opportunity to rest. If you do, you are delayed and gain 1 Sanity and 1 Stamina.

 
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M.C.Crispy
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tuckerotl wrote:
[Additionally, if the two conditions were completely equivalent, why wouldn't FFG pare down to just use the simpler keyword delayed instead of continuing to use both terms all the way through Miskatonic?
Hah hah hah hah! You're kidding, right?
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Salty
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tuckerotl wrote:
So, while "stay here next turn" does mean the investigator is delayed (and that any and all things that apply to delayed investigators also apply to those investigators instructed to "stay here next turn"), "stay here next turn" appears to have a slightly stronger meaning than just delayed. Note that in the FAQ answer above, the investigator is still delayed, but a new condition has superseded the the “stay here” instruction.


In the FAQ section of the Innsmouth Horror rules, they spell it out explicitly.

IH Rules p.12 wrote:
“Stay here next turn” is equivalent in all ways to being delayed.


I'm guessing they left it out of the main FAQ because they thought the answer on page 13 covered it. If for whatever reason they changed their minds between Innsmouth Horror and now, they would have to directly say so, since it makes a big difference for Mark Harrigan, among others.

The example you gave in the FAQ plays out exactly the same if you replace "stay here" with "delayed." In the Innsmouth rules, that question is immediately after the one I quoted, most likely to avoid this confusion.

tuckerotl wrote:
Additionally, if the two conditions were completely equivalent, why wouldn't FFG pare down to just use the simpler keyword delayed instead of continuing to use both terms all the way through Miskatonic?


Either an oversight or artistic license. The developer commented on it (search "Stay here next turn (09/12/06)"). It's possible that another dev used the "stay here next turn" wording in later expansions and it was missed in proofreading. From a cursory search, I only see "stay here next turn" used up to Dunwich, before this comment was made, and then in Miskatonic Horror, which was apparently designed by a different developer.
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