Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

Vietnam 1965-1975» Forums » Rules

Subject: Invasions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mark Evans
United States
Berlin
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This question came up this weekend. If ARVN forces start the season in Cambodia and leave during that season such that there are no US controlled forces in Cambodia at the end of the season, is there a morale penalty for the US?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Mullen
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
This isn't me, this is General Creighton Abrams, the man who took over MACV after Westmoreland. A genius, innovator and American hero in the truest sense.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not in my opinion, Mark. Your likely opponent ( ) in this case and one of my opponents highlight the fact that the penalty occurs in the Morale phase (I think because my opponent played another guy this way) to essentially allow the US a second potential season after invasion to operate cross border. The rules say nothing about the presence penalty for ARVN or US being tied to a time marker of *when* the penalty is applied (The Morale Segment in the Interphase).

There must be a penalty for invading, and must be a penalty for presence. The penalties and the conditions themselves are based off two historic invasions:

1.) Operation FREEDOM DEAL (The Invasion of Cambodia in 1970) which in game terms is a one season invasion (in in Game turn 1, out before the season ends). This is a "US Invades" penalty.

2.) Lam Son 719, the ARVN-only invasion of Laos in 1971. In Game terms, the ARVN invaded Laos in Game Turn one and were out by the end of Game Turn 2. This is an "ARVN Invades" Penalty.

In my mind, anything longer than this invokes the "Presence" Penalty, but on the next Interphase. In your example, this would incur the presence penalty. Allowing an extra season of operations, in essence is extremely unhistorical, and is exactly, in my opinion, why there is even a presence penalty in the first place. Otherwise it wouldn't even be implemented until the US player, potentially, stayed in country 6 months after invading.

Edit: My opponent and I worked out a compromise in our game. If the US player exits units during strategic movement in a season after an invasion, and does not conduct any operations other than strategic movement out of Laos/Cambodia, no presence penalty is applied.

Pat
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brent Pollock
Canada
Saskatoon
Saskatchewan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've only had a quick (re)scan of the rules. Where does it talk about "presence"? The only thing I can see is the PAGE 48 chart that mentions "units remain in", which means to me that if they withdraw, it does not count as a penalty.

So, I'd say, "There is no morale penalty for the US".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Mullen
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
This isn't me, this is General Creighton Abrams, the man who took over MACV after Westmoreland. A genius, innovator and American hero in the truest sense.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
WBRP wrote:
I've only had a quick (re)scan of the rules. Where does it talk about "presence"? The only thing I can see is the PAGE 48 chart that mentions "units remain in", which means to me that if they withdraw, it does not count as a penalty.

So, I'd say, "There is no morale penalty for the US".


Hi Brent,

The question is "units remain in" when? Start of the next interphase? End of the next Season?

Pat
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brent Pollock
Canada
Saskatoon
Saskatchewan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's been about 8-ish years since I played, but I say, "whenever you are using that modifier". Looking at the chart, that section falls under "APPLIED DURING POLITICS PHASE", so it seems you've got until then to get outta Dodge.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Mullen
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
This isn't me, this is General Creighton Abrams, the man who took over MACV after Westmoreland. A genius, innovator and American hero in the truest sense.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
WBRP wrote:
It's been about 8-ish years since I played, but I say, "whenever you are using that modifier". Looking at the chart, that section falls under "APPLIED DURING POLITICS PHASE", so it seems you've got until then to get outta Dodge.


Yep, that's a school of thought. I disagree for the absolute ahistorocity above (6 effective months in Cambodia).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brent Pollock
Canada
Saskatoon
Saskatchewan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Historically, how long did it take before the US population got upset with the "presence"? Is that not what the morale is supposed to represent.

Maybe Nick Karp will wander by the forum and give us a definitive answer.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Mullen
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
This isn't me, this is General Creighton Abrams, the man who took over MACV after Westmoreland. A genius, innovator and American hero in the truest sense.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
WBRP wrote:
Historically, how long did it take before the US population got upset with the "presence"? Is that not what the morale is supposed to represent.


Yeah, that's the problem there, that never happened. Both historical invasions were of the "In and out in one season" variety. Cambodia let to a nation wide freak out by the Anti-War movement (see Kent State) and a congressional prohibition on US ground troops entering Laos Or Cambodia. Lam Son 719 led to a Congressional prohibition on US Support to any future South Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia or Laos (no Airmobile points or Air points...I wouldn't invade...).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Curt Chambers

Arizona
msg tools
mbmbmb
Brent pretty much mirrors my position on this. Without a more specific definition of "presence" or "remains", we are left to work with what we have. And what we have is that the penalty is applied during the politics phase. It follows that that is when the condition is determined.

I would add that it is risky to try and equate game time with real time. In game time an operation takes exactly 6 weeks. In real life that same op may have only lasted a few days. In the game we do things sequentially. In real life it all happens concurently.

Thus, whether an invasion happens at the beginning or end of a season is meaningless if you're trying to estimate the actual time units spend out of country and apply it to the Morale rule. Pat has the right idea here. The morale penalty should have a relationship to the amount of time the invasion lasts. I just don't think it's possible to make that determination within the framework of the rules as they are written.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randy Knight
United States
Westerly
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
The example of play illustrates how to apply this rule very clearly.

Randy
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Curt Chambers

Arizona
msg tools
mbmbmb
Yes. It is consistent with how we are interpreting the rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Evans
United States
Berlin
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I see a lot of discussion, but everybody seems to be saying 'no' is the answer. Am I reading this right.

By the way as a bit of trivia. The last unit left Cambodia during the Infiltration Phase as a Reaction Move. I think that is the absolute first opportunity to leave short of withdrawing the unit from the map.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
david brawley
United States
virginia beach
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I have to disagree. The US would still get a penalty. The definition of invasion states the answer in my opinion.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.