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Subject: We don't need no education rss

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Kaitlyn Smith
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We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone
All in all it's just another brick in the wall
All in all you're just another brick in the wall

I was thinking about these immortal words of Pink Floyd when writing about thought control in another thread. Especially that line about dark sarcasm, I had to wonder if he was talking about the teacher shaping children's political leanings.

It is hard to believe that anybody is against teaching reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic. It is best IMO to teach critical thinking - teach the child to think for themselves, and let them decide later in life what they would like their government to be.

If a whole generation of kids is taught to think for themselves and decides that "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" is a good philosophy for government to live under, then so be it, this is their world now and good-bye America as we know it, but this is the America they want and they are entitled to have it.

However, if the teachers teach Marx's slogan as a good rule to live by, I believe that's just wrong. Similarly, if they teach that the Founding Fathers did not mean the Constitution to be interpreted loosely and that evil men would try to call it a living breathing document, even though that is close to what I think, I think it would be wrong to teach our children that, especially since that isn't the prevailing opinion. Teach the kids to think critically, and let them come up with their own conclusions.

Anyway, back to the song.

It came out around the same time as Alice Cooper's biggest hit "School's Out For Summer" which was clearly an expression of children's jubilation at not having school for a period of time. However, while the lyrics to "Another Brick In The Wall" could be interpreted similarly, I have always thought that was a mistake. Apparently my version was closer to reality than I thought:

http://composingwritingv2.weebly.com/project-text/the-real-m...

Quote:
He is saying that authority figures are the peoples' bricks in the walls. The deep meaning of the song is that the teacher actually represents the government and the students are the people. The government doesn't let people do what they want and the government wants to control everyone.


Quote:
The character Pink in the film for part two is in class daydreaming about students marching together and wearing masks. The students all look like clones wearing the same creepy masks. The students are marching blindly and they fall into a meat grinder. Toward the end Pink is dreaming about the students burning down the school and destroying their chairs and desks. I think this means that eventually people get really tired of being controlled by the government which results in war, strikes, and other violent events. Pink wakes up from his daydream when a teacher smacks his hand.


While he isn't specifically talking about indoctrination, he is talking about government controlling the people, instead of what should be the case, the people controlling the government.

I saw one sad thing in this article:

Quote:
Teachers don't let students misbehave and be themselves.
This is a criticism with which I don't agree. Teachers can't teach if the students misbehave. In fact, in one of my more unpopular opinions, I stated that kids would learn more if classes or schools were segregated by behavior problems so that the well-behaved kids had a chance to learn without disruption. Some racists complained that my idea was racist because they assumed without any proof whatsoever that I would equate the misbehaving kids with minorities. Nothing could be further from the truth, although I could see where racist principals could make this an issue.

However, I did find it interesting that a song that many think is about student rebellion is actually about overreaching government control.
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Why is Christianity incompatible w/ Marxism?

"From each according to his ability, to each according to their need" doesn't mean some people fish and other eat for the day, some people's need is simply "teach me how to fish."

Does God not call us to take care of those in need?

Let's say you want the government out of that equation entirely because you think it's inefficient. (We disagree, and that's perfectly fine -- that's a longer argument.) Why do you disagree with the concept of helping the needy?
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Aric Ashgrove
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There is a notable difference in reciprocal altruism and government regulated(often mandated) social programs. Tribal peoples (and the origins of man) use the former type. Modernists are increasingly promoting the latter. The argument should not be which is better, but WHY specifically one is promoted over the other. Governments are at the mercy of us, explaining and often demanding why we need them. I agree with the idea that to educate some one, means specifically with a certain intent or end goal. With public schools being a program of the government, if should not be too hard to see what ideas they are promoting.
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Kelsey Rinella
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Ideology is inescapable, though. We had conservatives freaking out in RSP a while back because teachers were having kids bring in supplies, which were then put into a communal storehouse and doled out to children as needed. If they instead enforced property rights and ignored or punished those who didn't have the tools needed to complete the work, that would also communicate an ideology.

The racism bit is interesting in part because systemslike the one you proposed have always tended to have disparate impacts by race and sex. So even if the program isn't motivated by animus, you have to either care little enough about preventing racism that you don't research whether you'll exacerbate it (so you don't know), or you know your program will produce racially problematic consequences, and you think it's worth it (you don't much care). I think it's pretty reasonable to think that doesn't count as racism, especially the first example, but I can understand why people would think the word "racism" is more useful if it does count, too. So much of what we understand to be the problem with racism comes from people cultivating ignorance or apathy that they are important to consider when addressing the problem.

Of course, if you want to include deliberate ignorance and apathy in "racism", it's still important to have another word which means the remainder of the problem. I've sometimes heard "racial animus" for that.
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Kaitlyn_Res wrote:
Teachers can't teach if the students misbehave.

Yup. Welcome to my world since September. angry
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Do you think most American schools are teaching Marxism, Kaitlyn? I would be surprised if that were true.
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casey r lowe
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public schools are so bad i wouldnt worry about any intentional indoctrination going on because it would obviously fail
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Lee Fisher
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Of course Waters is generally communist/socialist and hates Trump.
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Ashgrove wrote:
There is a notable difference in reciprocal altruism and government regulated(often mandated) social programs. Tribal peoples (and the origins of man) use the former type. Modernists are increasingly promoting the latter. The argument should not be which is better, but WHY specifically one is promoted over the other. Governments are at the mercy of us, explaining and often demanding why we need them. I agree with the idea that to educate some one, means specifically with a certain intent or end goal. With public schools being a program of the government, if should not be too hard to see what ideas they are promoting.

charitable giving by the rich is largely a sham they pursue for vanity and as a way to publicly absolve themselves from a life of opulence - see donald trump https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-boasts-of-his-...
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Kaitlyn Smith
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sbszine wrote:
Do you think most American schools are teaching Marxism, Kaitlyn? I would be surprised if that were true.
I don't think so at the time (although I had a teacher a long time ago that did) but my point is they should be teaching critical thinking and not any ideology. My guess is that isn't happening.
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J.D. Hall
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Let's see -- most teachers (after 5-6 years of education to earn a bachelor's degree) make around $55K-$85K depending on level of experience and which state they're in (in Oklahoma, average teacher pay is $44K). Russell Westbrook (who left UCLA without a degree), the point guard for the Oklahoma City Thunder NBA team, makes $30M (yes, million) a year. And that's just salary -- endorsement deals and his clothing line more than doubles that.

And people wonder why teachers might lean toward Communism?
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Terwox wrote:
Why is Christianity incompatible w/ Marxism?

"From each according to his ability, to each according to their need" doesn't mean some people fish and other eat for the day, some people's need is simply "teach me how to fish."

Does God not call us to take care of those in need?

Let's say you want the government out of that equation entirely because you think it's inefficient. (We disagree, and that's perfectly fine -- that's a longer argument.) Why do you disagree with the concept of helping the needy?


"Good men can make any for of government work; wicked men can misuse any form of government." ~Some Guy
 
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Kaitlyn_Res wrote:
sbszine wrote:
Do you think most American schools are teaching Marxism, Kaitlyn? I would be surprised if that were true.
I don't think so at the time (although I had a teacher a long time ago that did) but my point is they should be teaching critical thinking and not any ideology. My guess is that isn't happening.


guessing much easier than critical thinking. or working from facts.
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Kaitlyn Smith
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remorseless1 wrote:
Let's see -- most teachers (after 5-6 years of education to earn a bachelor's degree) make around $55K-$85K depending on level of experience and which state they're in (in Oklahoma, average teacher pay is $44K). Russell Westbrook (who left UCLA without a degree), the point guard for the Oklahoma City Thunder NBA team, makes $30M (yes, million) a year. And that's just salary -- endorsement deals and his clothing line more than doubles that.

And people wonder why teachers might lean toward Communism?


There aren't many professions which exemplify Marx's slogan more than teaching.

The following teachers both make about $80K with a lot of experience.

Teacher 1: Respects the students, and the students respect her. She constantly has the students thinking. Presents the material in a very lively manner with much student participation. Always looking for better ways to present the material to be both more interesting to the students and more likely to be retained by the students.

Teacher 2: Puts in her time. Doesn't really care much about the students, and from her point of view, with good reason, they don't respect her because she doesn't respect them and they can sense that, so they misbehave. Many classes, she'll just hand out worksheets and won't explain the material very well because she says "they aren't going to get it anyway." If she has to teach, she sits in the back of the room monotonically reading from a book and putting those kids that are paying attention to sleep.

These two make the same money. The teachers' unions make sure of that. I would happily pay twice the school taxes I pay now to have a Teacher 1 in every classroom making $200K a year. (Yes, the salary more than doubles, but the overhead doesn't go up that much) and boot all the Teacher 2's out on their sorry a**es.

Maybe teachers would be more in favor of capitalism if they were paid what they were truly worth - the 1's getting 200K (maybe still underpaid) and the 2's getting nothing (which would still make them overpaid, especially if they get healthcare along with their no pay.)
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J.D. Hall
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Kaitlyn_Res wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Let's see -- most teachers (after 5-6 years of education to earn a bachelor's degree) make around $55K-$85K depending on level of experience and which state they're in (in Oklahoma, average teacher pay is $44K). Russell Westbrook (who left UCLA without a degree), the point guard for the Oklahoma City Thunder NBA team, makes $30M (yes, million) a year. And that's just salary -- endorsement deals and his clothing line more than doubles that.

And people wonder why teachers might lean toward Communism?


There aren't many professions which exemplify Marx's slogan more than teaching.

The following teachers both make about $80K with a lot of experience.

Teacher 1: Respects the students, and the students respect her. She constantly has the students thinking. Presents the material in a very lively manner with much student participation. Always looking for better ways to present the material to be both more interesting to the students and more likely to be retained by the students.

Teacher 2: Puts in her time. Doesn't really care much about the students, and from her point of view, with good reason, they don't respect her because she doesn't respect them and they can sense that, so they misbehave. Many classes, she'll just hand out worksheets and won't explain the material very well because she says "they aren't going to get it anyway." If she has to teach, she sits in the back of the room monotonically reading from a book and putting those kids that are paying attention to sleep.

These two make the same money. The teachers' unions make sure of that. I would happily pay twice the school taxes I pay now to have a Teacher 1 in every classroom making $200K a year. (Yes, the salary more than doubles, but the overhead doesn't go up that much) and boot all the Teacher 2's out on their sorry a**es.

Maybe teachers would be more in favor of capitalism if they were paid what they were truly worth - the 1's getting 200K (maybe still underpaid) and the 2's getting nothing (which would still make them overpaid, especially if they get healthcare along with their no pay.)


Fortunately, the majority of teachers fit the #1 profile. And you're always going to have teachers that fit #2, just like you do in private business.

And while teachers' unions have problems, I also know they are needed. There was a very popular, good history teacher in a nearby town. Had been there for 20 years, after teaching at Indian schools for five years. Students loved him. But one day, one of the students told his mother that the teacher had quoted Ben Franklin's old saw "in the dark, all cats are gray" -- during some discussion of the battle for women's voting rights. His mother, a very conservative, evangelical Christian, immediately began raising hell, thinking the teacher had just made a sexual comment to his students. She got members of her church congregation involved, then some statewide, ahem, "family first" groups in on it. After six months of harassment, the teacher quit.

The moral of the story? He never joined the teachers' union.

So there is bad with unions, and good with unions.
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Mc Jarvis
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Kaitlyn_Res wrote:

Teacher 2: .... Doesn't really care much about the students,


Good luck finding that teacher. Also your starting presumption of $80k teacher salaries as a baseline is laughable.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary...
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Kaitlyn_Res wrote:
It came out around the same time as Alice Cooper's biggest hit "School's Out For Summer" which was clearly an expression of children's jubilation at not having school for a period of time.
I think you might be missing the point of "School's Out" also. Though a different message than "Another Brick In The Wall", it is about the school system having failed. Often taken as a last day of school Anthem, it is, like much of Alice Cooper's stuff at the time, a comment on society. School's not just out for summer, it's out forever.
 
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Kaitlyn Smith
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TheChin! wrote:
School's not just out for summer, it's out forever.
And completely too.
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Kaitlyn_Res wrote:
However, I did find it interesting that a song that many think is about student rebellion is actually about overreaching government control.

But you are wrong. The song is about student rebellion and government overreach. It's also about a number of other things. Art is not just layered with meaning, but often intentionally paradoxical.

Just like in politics, there are no singular answers. Nothing is actually about any one thing.
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Re: We don't need no education learn
Attended P.S.#1 and what's your "excuses"? modest
 
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rayito2702 wrote:
Kaitlyn_Res wrote:
However, I did find it interesting that a song that many think is about student rebellion is actually about overreaching government control.

But you are wrong. The song is about student rebellion and government overreach. It's also about a number of other things. Art is not just layered with meaning, but often intentionally paradoxical.

Just like in politics, there are no singular answers. Nothing is actually about any one thing.
Children were akin of 'bread dough' since what you HAVE as the "proper" 'instilled/ingredients' shall ARISE from those, or you have a 'lump' of "crap"! coal
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Though I agree w/ unions in principle, in practice, yes, the teacher's union is ridiculous.

Some things should not be based on seniority.
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Kaitlyn_Res wrote:
Quote:
Teachers don't let students misbehave and be themselves.
This is a criticism with which I don't agree. Teachers can't teach if the students misbehave. In fact, in one of my more unpopular opinions, I stated that kids would learn more if classes or schools were segregated by behavior problems so that the well-behaved kids had a chance to learn without disruption.


This is one of the grand challenges in education. It's called the heterogeneous vs. homogeneous debate. There is no definitive answer to the problem of either mixing abilities (heterogeneous) or segregating ability (homogeneous) as both have their uses. However at the broadest scales studies have shown that hetero groups of students give a real benefit to lower performing students. If you're charged with trying to raise the abilities of an entire population then a great deal of the problem amounts to how to raise the lowest performing sections of the population. Reducing lower performing outcomes cascades into a lot of other societal benefits (lower crime, drug use, better health, skilled workers, etc.) but at the cost that higher performing students are not pushed as far academically as they could have gone.

Here is Vermont I don't see it happening along racial lines, Vermont is one of the whitest states in the US, but rather along class lines. Some communities here are able to reduce the amount of students coming from poverty backgrounds through zoning laws and wealth concentration. If a township is composed of high priced rural real estate, and mitigates the construction of any housing density or apartment zoning then it essentially keeps most poverty populations out of their schools. Less poverty generally means less behavioral problems and thus higher performing schools, which in turn increasing property values, leading to greater segregation along class lines.


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Kaitlyn Smith
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echoota wrote:
However at the broadest scales studies have shown that hetero groups of students give a real benefit to lower performing students.
I haven't really thought much about this, but my first impression is that it is the highest group of students that is going to make the most difference to society with innovation. Is it better to have more and better future innovation or is it better to use the higher performing students "help" the lower performing students?
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Kaitlyn_Res wrote:
echoota wrote:
However at the broadest scales studies have shown that hetero groups of students give a real benefit to lower performing students.
I haven't really thought much about this, but my first impression is that it is the highest group of students that is going to make the most difference to society with innovation. Is it better to have more and better future innovation or is it better to use the higher performing students "help" the lower performing students?


Yeah like those dropouts Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.
 
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