Gerald Reston
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It's time for there to be a SURGE in backers for the Kickstarter for Israeli Air Force Leader. We're not getting anywhere without help from backers. We shall not be held back by complaints like "This is boring because it's got a Center Target like Phantom Leader" nor "It's a TAL clone!" One opinion doesn't make a difference, and it's NOT a TAL clone.

This KS must not flop, or it will mean dire consequences for future Kickstarters for Leader titles like Sherman Leader or Huey Leader. It's time to stop hesitating and being skeptical, and start backing, please!

Read all the previous threads to see what the latest gameplay elements and so on are all about, please.

There are rewards to be found, including Miniatures for IAFL and B-17 Flying Fortress Leader (for those who missed the latter's KS), copies of the game itself, Hornet Leader B-17 Flying Fortress Leader, Gato and U-Boat Leader, Phantom Leader AND Thunderbolt-Apache Leader! So there's reason to back this, no matter what your reservations!

EDIT: A neat little Campaign is progress - Operation Opera! The strike on the Iraqi nuclear reactor! Or at least, a slightly hypothetical version of it.
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Michael Andersch
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What's your special interest in promoting this game soooo massively???

I personally do not feel the need to back it. For me, it's to close to HL:CAO and PLD. OK, it may have some nice twists, but I do not need them (the other two games are enough for me, and although PLD is in some aspects different from HL:CAO and also has "some nice Twists", it also plays pretty much the same).

Besides, "Israel" and its conflicts don't really attract me, neither do planes and/or scenarios from the 1950s, 1960s and so on.

And: Can we be sure that it is sufficiently playtested and "Quality-checked" (gameplay, completeness of rules, ...)? I personally prefer to not buy DVG-games blindly any more, experiencing a bad surprise (as some did with Tiger Leader)...

And finally, my experience from backing other DVG games at KS (or monitoring the KS-Campaigns): I never had any advantage from backing. I neither got more, nor got the same cheaper than normal buyers later on. In fact, when backing Warfighter Wave 2, shipping was so expensive (because DVG didn't manage to "circumvent" customs despite the fact that they promised "Europe friendly shipping"), that I was really annoyed.

So there's no single reason for me to back it. And to be honest, no reason to support any future DVG-game, too. In case there would be a game I'd really like to own, I would wait and buy it from a local retailer. And if my non-supporting would lead to the game not being published at all - no problem, there are enough other games to play. World will for sure turn on.
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Gerald Reston
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Micha wrote:
What's your special interest in promoting this game soooo massively???

I personally do not feel the need to back it. For me, it's to close to HL:CAO and PLD. OK, it may have some nice twists, but I do not need them (the other two games are enough for me, and although PLD is in some aspects different from HL:CAO and also has "some nice Twists", it also plays pretty much the same).

Besides, "Israel" and its conflicts don't really attract me, neither do planes and/or scenarios from the 1950s, 1960s and so on.

And: Can we be sure that it is sufficiently playtested and "Quality-checked" (gameplay, completeness of rules, ...)? I personally prefer to not buy DVG-games blindly any more, experiencing a bad surprise (as some did with Tiger Leader)...

And finally, my experience from backing other DVG games at KS (or monitoring the KS-Campaigns): I never had any advantage from backing. I neither got more, nor got the same cheaper than normal buyers later on. In fact, when backing Warfighter Wave 2, shipping was so expensive (because DVG didn't manage to "circumvent" customs despite the fact that they promised "Europe friendly shipping"), that I was really annoyed.

So there's no single reason for me to back it. And to be honest, no reason to support any future DVG-game, too. In case there would be a game I'd really like to own, I would wait and buy it from a local retailer. And if my non-supporting would lead to the game not being published at all - no problem, there are enough other games to play. World will for sure turn on.


I'm sorry, Michael. I was foolish to be acting so melodramatic... Doubly so that you feel that way regarding DVG.

Right now, I need some time off this subject and relax. I don't want to drive myself nuts.
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Dan Verssen
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I would suggest taking a look at the Kickstarter to see all of the major differences between previous Leader games, and this one.

If you are not interested in the era, then there's not much to be done about that

Tiger was an exception, as there are plenty other DVG games that have been made to their usual quality.

For the exclusivity of the Kickstarter/Pre-Order vs. purchasing it from your retailer: There is a metal token with the Israeli Kfir. Not much, but it's something. Also, all games bought through KS usually have around a 20% discount from their usual price.

If this just is not something you're interested in, there's nothing I can do to change your mind, and the world will turn on regardless.
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Gerald Reston
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...Well said! World will turn on, no matter what.
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Michael Andersch
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Dan, thanks for your response!

You wrote
DanVerssen wrote:

Tiger was an exception, as there are plenty other DVG games that have been made to their usual quality.


Please allow me to add some more thoughts on that. And I would be happy to get an answer and read your point of view
You may be right regarding the quality of the material. That is one point, but to me "quality" is more than physical quality.
I would at least add
- playtesting (getting a "working" game) and
- quality of the rules (completeness, structure,...)

Regarding playtesting, I admittedly doubt that you do enough. Let me give you some examples:
- Field Commander Rommel: The scenarios are really hard. Really, really hard in my eyes. Especially the first one. There are discussions, if or how it can be done at all. In fact (but that may be due to bad gaming of mine) I never managed to win any single scenario in FC:R.
- U-Boat Leader: It was a long time ago that I played it (meanwhile i sold it), but I remember that I also thought, that the game is quite unbeatable
- Rulequestions to all of your games: If you look at the forums here, you see lots of rulesquestions concerning your games. I admit, that quite some of them may be superfluous, as the answer is clearly in the rules. But there are also a lot of questions, where the answers are not in the rules but the situation is not so rare, so that anyone giving the game some tries must have faced them. So either you didn't face them because you didn't playtest enough, or you forgot to mention it in the rules (or you did so on purpose).
- I also remember some postings where Kevin "blogged" the progress of (I hope I remeber correctly) Tiger Leader. More than once I read: "changed xy yesterday, tested, worked." I then simply couldn't imagine, that with all the dependencys, e.g. due to different cards, a new (or changed) mechanism could be tested so quickly just with one or two games.

Regarding quality of rules, first of all, I admit that possibly everybody has a different understanding of what he considers "good and well structured rules". But:
- the huge amount of rulequestions must have a reason. Either the rules are not complete, or the structure doesn't help to find what you are looking for. To me, it's both. The rules simply are not precise enough. I remember the rules of warfighter, where e.g. "movement" rules are dispersed throughout the booklet and not consolidated in one paragraph. The description of the materials/Cards already includes parts of the rules, the main rules-section also does, and sometimes the sample-game also includes new aspects.
- And I honestly really got annoyed when getting PLD. The game (and the rules) are >90% the same as HL:CAO. Why did you just copy paste these parts and miss the opportunity to complete and improve them, including the points adressed in the questions on HL:CAO? That's something I really can't understand, because I think that every customer deserves a product that is "top notch", regardless whether he already knows the gamesystem (because he owns its predecessor) or whether he is new to the game.
Your games mostly are fun to play, and big parts of the fun come from the fact that the games are rather "simple" or "fast paced". To me, good rules make complex things easy. Your rules often make simple things complex...
I have a long gaming experience, but when I got HL:CAO, it was the first game ever I had no idea what to do after reading the rules, so I asked a friend who already knew how to play it to explain it to me.

So, I basically really love your games. The appearance, the "flavour", the gaming-experience - all of this attracts me very much. But the points mentioned above as well as some others (e.g. different games being "not different enough", high shipping cost,..) meanwhile resulted in the effect that I do not back any of your games at KS any more and that I have a detailled look at what I will get before I maybe buy them afterwards. Sorry to say that...
 
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