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Subject: Is there a solution for king making at the last card? rss

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Andre Oliveira
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Last time we played, when we turned a coup card, both NVA and USA players were within their victory ranges.

The very last player was South Vietnam, and he could either do some Govern and reduce Support, thus taking the USA player out of his victory range... or... raid NVA bases in Laos, thus taking him out of his victory range.

And that was a bummer.

Has anyone ever come across such a situation?
Is there a good house rule for that??

Thanks!
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Kurt Purcell
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The latest COIN games (Liberty or Death & Falling Sky) use the rule where the Winter/Coup/Propaganda card immediately replaces the current card. Thus, no chance for action once that appears. I'm sure others have house ruled that into the previous versions including Fire in the Lake. This goes in hand with seeding the deck so they only appear within the last five/six cards of each shuffled section.
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Jesse Edelstein
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It's also worth noting that the NVA and US players were not both about to win. Section 7.1:

Quote:
If any Non-player Faction (8.0) passes a victory check (7.2), all players lose equally. Otherwise, whenever any player does so or if none does by game end, the Faction that reached the highest victory margin (7.3) comes in 1st place, 2nd highest comes in 2nd place, and so on. Ties go to Non-players (8.0), then the VC, then the ARVN, then the NVA.


So while the ARVN player got to choose who won, that seems like a natural consequence of the fact that each player can harm all others (in different ways). I guess this is still kingmaking, and you can use the immediate Coup! variant that Kurt describes if that's a problem. But to me it does not seem that different than the ARVN player deciding to go all-in after NVA Bases or US Support several turns before the Coup! card is revealed.
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Malcolm Cameron
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If the ARVN plays to improve its own position as much as possible then neither the NVA nor the USA has a ground to complain - whoever that favours.

The goal is to win (or to come as close to winning as possible), but it is the goal that is important not the winning (or the getting closer to winning).


 
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Tim K
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In such a situation I would decline to act. There is a difference between actively helping one surpass another to win and passively letting someone prevail over another.

An exception is if the first place player was unduly biased during the game against me. Then I have no problem stopping him from winning. I hold no grudges in the "meta-game" beyond a learned cautiousness, but if you've screwed me all game, I feel passiveness in that situation is downright poor play.

All I ask of my opponents is fair play and effort to maximize your chances at victory. If I mess with you excessively, I do not expect consideration. And I expect reasonable opponents to understand if the converse occurs they should expect no special consideration from me.
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Philip Jelley
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I would play the ARVN thematically, and accept bribes.
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Bob Gibson
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" ...use the rule where the Winter/Coup/Propaganda card immediately replaces the current card." I apply the Liberty or Death rule with all my COIN games. It's much more enjoyable of a game to play using this rule. To me, for Fire in the Lake, it just makes more sense to have the Coup card triggered, than to see it one card ahead and have a chance to react. If it's a simulation, then I'd expect a coup not to advertise their intentions before acting on them. In addition, it really adds more suspense to when the actual coup will occur.
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Andre Oliveira
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Yeah, I think that's a very good solution.
Thanks a lot, guys!
 
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Jason Sherlock
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The Monsoons really limit what factions can do before a coup. I don't think that you really need the LOD rules for them during most of teh game.

If it is a big concern, you could have the final coup trigger when revealed.
 
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suPUR DUEper
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jackalope wrote:
The Monsoons really limit what factions can do before a coup. I don't think that you really need the LOD rules for them during most of teh game.


Somewhat.... there are still plenty of things a side can do to hurt another side: ARVN can govern (hurts US), US can airlift troops to change control (hurts NVA/ARVN), NVA can Terror (hurts US/VC), etc.

If I were presented with a kingmaking situation in FitL, I would help my "natural" ally (i.e. VC/NVA or US/ARVN).
 
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